marriage of non practicing Catholics

[MarysLittleFlower]

If they don't have the right intentions and disagree with the Church position on marriage that could make it invalid and the priest might not marry them. If my friend ever gets engaged then I'd probably suggest for her to speak to my priest. I also pray for her conversion. What I got confused about is the part you said about not being her friend. We can be a friend yet not support sinful actions or incorrect views. Even if we don't attend a wedding we could still intend to be a friend. 

Edited December 22, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Kevin]

45 minutes ago, MarysLittleFlower said:

If they don't have the right intentions and disagree with the Church position on marriage that could make it invalid and the priest might not marry them. If my friend ever gets engaged then I'd probably suggest for her to speak to my priest. I also pray for her conversion. What I got confused about is the part you said about not being her friend. We can be a friend yet not support sinful actions or incorrect views. Even if we don't attend a wedding we could still intend to be a friend. 

You seem to be of a party with this fellow: you believe that attending an invalid marriage (invalid according to the Church perfect and also changeable rules) would lead to a scandal, because people who saw you at that wedding would be confused about whether or not you approved of their marriage. I'm telling you, if that's what you believe, why don't you stop acting by half-measures and cut this friend out of your life to avoid scandalizing people, because there's certainly a possibility it will.

 

[Kevin]

Okay, I'm getting too wrapped up and I want to not be bothered by the thought of this thread. So, I'll say, obviously you shouldn't stop being friends with your friend. I have been uncharitable, and I'm sorry for that. Though I think it is true that you're friends marriage, were it to take place would be invalid.

[Papist]

11 hours ago, Maggyie said:

I would not, because I don't know in the interim if they went to confession, if they had a vision of Jesus and just experienced perfect contrition, if what they told me wasn't the whole story (maybe they said they intentionally missed but there are mitigating circumstances etc). Nor is it appropriate to interrogate someone on whether any of the above has taken place.

When attending Mass of any kind including wedding Masses, I am not the Holy Communion police for the other faithful. Frankly laity are rarely qualified to perform that task since they don't have any spiritual authority over others' souls. If one has "feels" about whether others are in the state of grace, one must ascribe these to pride or scruples and squelch them. 

Now definitely it's important to make sure people are instructed in general about Holy Communion and the need for proper disposition. But the only person qualified to tell someone they specifically can't receive Holy Communion due to unworthiness is their pastor, spiritual director, bishop etc. it ain't me, and it ain't MLF or any of us here. 

It is not about being prideful or holier than thou. It is about protecting the Eucharist and the person receiving.  You are adding hypothetical ifs into the situation. I believe differently. If I am aware of one's actions, I need to act accordingly to what I know, not what maybe, might be. etc.  I assume that people I do not know that receive communion are receiving worthily, as the Church does.  However, if I know my sister does not attend Sunday Mass and then attends Christmas Mass with me, I am protecting the Eucharist and protecting and instructing her when I explain the situation (1 Corinthians 11:27). Of course, I do not say, Hey sis you're a wretched sinner that never goes to Mass and if you receive the Eucharist without going to confession then you are going to hell. No, I confirm what I believe I know is true, and then kindly explain the Church's teaching. It is still her choice to receive or not. 

Edited December 22, 2015 by Papist

[MarysLittleFlower]

11 hours ago, Kevin said:

You seem to be of a party with this fellow: you believe that attending an invalid marriage (invalid according to the Church perfect and also changeable rules) would lead to a scandal, because people who saw you at that wedding would be confused about whether or not you approved of their marriage. I'm telling you, if that's what you believe, why don't you stop acting by half-measures and cut this friend out of your life to avoid scandalizing people, because there's certainly a possibility it will.

 

Yes I believe we shouldn't attend an invalid marriage. No I don't know if my friends wedding would be invalid: I'll ask my priest. It depends on her intent because even being in sin doesnt invalidate a Sacrament. No it doesn't mean I have to stop being friends with her even IF I can't go to the wedding. Its not "half measures". Im sorry but this will be my final reply here. I just can't participate in this debate anymore - I have asked twice for no debates because I came here to get help. If you have a difficulty with the Church please speak to a priest who is trained in canon law. 

Edited December 22, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Maggyie]

4 hours ago, Papist said:

It is not about being prideful or holier than thou. It is about protecting the Eucharist and the person receiving.  You are adding hypothetical ifs into the situation. I believe differently. If I am aware of one's actions, I need to act accordingly to what I know, not what maybe, might be. etc.  I assume that people I do not know that receive communion are receiving worthily, as the Church does.  However, if I know my sister does not attend Sunday Mass and then attends Christmas Mass with me, I am protecting the Eucharist and protecting and instructing her when I explain the situation (1 Corinthians 11:27). Of course, I do not say, Hey sis you're a wretched sinner that never goes to Mass and if you receive the Eucharist without going to confession then you are going to hell. No, I confirm what I believe I know is true, and then kindly explain the Church's teaching. It is still her choice to receive or not. 

so in this scenario now your sister is forced to reveal to you whether she has gone to confession or not. Do you consider yourself entitled to this information? 

[Papist]

Just now, Maggyie said:

so in this scenario now your sister is forced to reveal to you whether she has gone to confession or not. Do you consider yourself entitled to this information? 

Only thing I am forcing her to do is consider the Church's teaching when receiving the Eucharist.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Kevin I'm sorry that I got annoyed, I just find that debates confuse me interiorly. That's my own weakness. Anyway I'm sorry and I wish you all the best. God bless you

Edited December 22, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[tinytherese]

On December 22, 2015 at 9:37:46 AM, Papist said:

Only thing I am forcing her to do is consider the Church's teaching when receiving the Eucharist.

For many non-practicing Catholics, someone interrogating them on whether they are in a state of grace to receive at mass that day would get defensive or feel humiliated. Others may be so offended by such intrusive questions that they'd be reluctant or turned off to the faith. So this would discourage conversion. Praying for them and only discussing it if the other person brings it up will be more likely to work, since they're not imposing.

[Papist]

7 hours ago, tinytherese said:

For many non-practicing Catholics, someone interrogating them on whether they are in a state of grace to receive at mass that day would get defensive or feel humiliated. Others may be so offended by such intrusive questions that they'd be reluctant or turned off to the faith. So this would discourage conversion. Praying for them and only discussing it if the other person brings it up will be more likely to work, since they're not imposing.

Please explain how me explaining Church teaching is interrogation? 

[CatherineM]

Being interrogated before marriage is supposed to be part of the priest's job. Because of my husband's illness and my head injury, we had to have letters from our doctors attesting to our competence to marry. 

[corban711]

MLF,

I am very sorry you are facing this situation.  I had a situation like this with my childhood best friend a few years back and it was very painful for me even to think about it and I had to pray long and hard about what I would do/should do/etc. So know first of all that I will be praying for you and your friend, and asking the Holy Spirit to provide you with light and clarity in guiding you in this situation.  

This won't answer all your questions directly, but I can tell you that I found peace in this, the path of trust.  St. Faustina says this in her Diary...

O my Jesus, how very easy it is to become holy; all that is needed is a bit of good will. If Jesus sees this little bit of good will in the soul, He hurries to give Himself to the soul, and nothing can stop Him, neither shortcomings nor falls — absolutely nothing. Jesus is anxious to help that soul, and if it is faithful to this grace from God, it can very soon attain the highest holiness possible for a creature here on earth. God is very generous and does not deny His grace to anyone. Indeed He gives more than what we ask of Him. Faithfulness to the inspirations of the Holy Spirit — that is the shortest route.
— Diary, 291

I can't tell you how many times I have brought this passage before Our Lord and talked with Him about it.  "Lord, my dear little sister Faustina says that all that is needed is just a little bit of good will and You will rush to that soul and help them, give them even more grace and mercy because You are so anxious to help them.  I know it's possible that my friend has mixed motives as I so often do, but that's never stopped You from being good to me!  Isn't he showing this bit of good will in being open to do the right thing, whatever His reasons?  Come to Him now.  Be with Him. Rush to Him and fill Him with Your Love. Guide Him as I know You already are.  Pour out Your Mercy upon Him.  Strengthen His resolve to do what's right and use this little openness to the Truth to plant even deeper seeds in his heart."  

The thing is, even though it's painful, I also trust Jesus with all my heart and I know that my friend's sacramental marriage (they ended up deciding not to have a Mass but did get married in the Church) is itself a grace and showed an openness to grace and truth.  I pray that the seeds planted that day will bear fruit in his life and marriage and will one day help to bring him back fully to the sacraments.  Entrust that to God, who is our Father and loves us, and beg Him to show His faithfulness to the covenant by pouring out even more grace and mercy that we don't deserve.  And entrust it to Our Lady.  

With regards to Communion, he ended up deciding that he wasn't ready to receive Communion and wasn't sure his wife would go to confession either so they decided not to have a Mass, so what looked like it may be possibly problematic became a non-issue.  The only thing I can say there is that IF they get engaged, and IF they marry, and IF they have a Mass, there is a lot of time between now and then for Our Lord to use their good will with which to work miracles of His grace and I would entrust that to Him.  But I also think that even if on the surface it seems as if nothing has changed, continue to trust God with it anyways.  If they have a Mass, receive Our Lord in Communion that day with ALL the love and welcome you can possibly muster and beg Him for the grace to love Him for all those who don't love Him.  Ask Him for the grace to receive any and all the love that is being rejected and tell Him you want to make reparation by accepting all that love and mercy He desires to pour out so that none of it is wasted!   Ask Him to look upon your love and pour out more and more grace...He can do this MLF, and you are in a perfect place to ask Him these things       

Trust Jesus even more...

[Papist]

13 hours ago, tinytherese said:

For many non-practicing Catholics, someone interrogating them on whether they are in a state of grace to receive at mass that day would get defensive or feel humiliated. Others may be so offended by such intrusive questions that they'd be reluctant or turned off to the faith. So this would discourage conversion. Praying for them and only discussing it if the other person brings it up will be more likely to work, since they're not imposing.

 

4 hours ago, CatherineM said:

Being interrogated before marriage is supposed to be part of the priest's job. Because of my husband's illness and my head injury, we had to have letters from our doctors attesting to our competence to marry. 

I fail to understand how what I posted equates to interrogation. 

[tinytherese]

11 hours ago, Papist said:

 

I fail to understand how what I posted equates to interrogation. 

Asking someone,

if they've committed any sins of grave matter, 

explaining and giving examples of those sins, and then asking them if they've committed any,

if they committed any of those sins with full knowledge,

and if they did so with full consent would be interrogating.

[little2add]

On December 21, 2015 at 5:48:27 AM, Papist said:

If a Catholic friend of yours told you he/she does not attend Mass intentionally. Then one day attends with you, would you instruct that he/she ought to refrain from receiving Communion? 

Why?  because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’”

You sound like The older brother who  became angry and refused welcome his brother, in The Parable of the Lost Son.

[Papist]

5 hours ago, tinytherese said:

Asking someone,

if they've committed any sins of grave matter, 

explaining and giving examples of those sins, and then asking them if they've committed any,

if they committed any of those sins with full knowledge,

and if they did so with full consent would be interrogating.

Nope. That is not what I said.  I would only speak to what I have knowledge of. I would not be ambiguous as saying "any sins of grave matter".  I believe the loving thing to do is instruct the ignorant, and not remain silent and let the person continue to be ignorant. I do not believe instruct the ignorant only applies to priests.  I am not saying you go, "Hey, you're ignorant and need my superior instruction." There is a kind and gentle way to do this. Also, we are not talking about strangers here. We are talking about person(s) who you have a relationship with.  I had this experience with family members. They miss Sunday Mass intentionally. It is hard to not know this knowledge when the whole family is sharing one house on our beach vacation. They do not believe not attending Sunday Mass intentionally is a mortal sin. I instructed, brought to their attention, however you want to say it, what the Church teaching is. Simple as that. I did not tell them what they had to do, but what the Church instructs us to do. Some argued, but I simply said, if you don't believe me I suggest you talk to your priest.

10 minutes ago, little2add said:

You sound like The older brother who  became angry and refused welcome his brother, in The Parable of the Lost Son.

How's that?

Edited January 5, 2016 by Papist

[vee]

The prerequisites for the reception of Holy Communion are 1) being in the state of grace, 2) having fasted for one hour (for the sick 15 minutes if possible, no fast if fasting is not possible), and 3) devotion and attention.

for further explanation

https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/communion_dispositions.htm

[little2add]

3 hours ago, Papist said:

Nope. That is not what I said.  I would only speak to what I have knowledge of. I would not be ambiguous as saying "any sins of grave matter".  I believe the loving thing to do is instruct the ignorant, and not remain silent and let the person continue to be ignorant. I do not believe instruct the ignorant only applies to priests.  I am not saying you go, "Hey, you're ignorant and need my superior instruction." There is a kind and gentle way to do this. Also, we are not talking about strangers here. We are talking about person(s) who you have a relationship with.  I had this experience with family members. They miss Sunday Mass intentionally. It is hard to not know this knowledge when the whole family is sharing one house on our beach vacation. They do not believe not attending Sunday Mass intentionally is a mortal sin. I instructed, brought to their attention, however you want to say it, what the Church teaching is. Simple as that. I did not tell them what they had to do, but what the Church instructs us to do. Some argued, but I simply said, if you don't believe me I suggest you talk to your priest.

How's that?

he (your catholic friend) was lost and is found, silly 

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

4 hours ago, Papist said:

Nope. That is not what I said.  I would only speak to what I have knowledge of. I would not be ambiguous as saying "any sins of grave matter".  I believe the loving thing to do is instruct the ignorant, and not remain silent and let the person continue to be ignorant. I do not believe instruct the ignorant only applies to priests.  I am not saying you go, "Hey, you're ignorant and need my superior instruction." There is a kind and gentle way to do this. Also, we are not talking about strangers here. We are talking about person(s) who you have a relationship with.  I had this experience with family members. They miss Sunday Mass intentionally. It is hard to not know this knowledge when the whole family is sharing one house on our beach vacation. They do not believe not attending Sunday Mass intentionally is a mortal sin. I instructed, brought to their attention, however you want to say it, what the Church teaching is. Simple as that. I did not tell them what they had to do, but what the Church instructs us to do. Some argued, but I simply said, if you don't believe me I suggest you talk to your priest.

 

Sounds like a really good time. Not. Just as a point of interest, after you brought this up, did you then drop the subject, and go on to have a good weekend? Or, did you continue to bring the subject up?

Simply want to know when it comes time to invite people to my beach house. Not that I have a beach house. So, don't worry, I won't invite you.

Note: I will grant that being told what to do is a VERY sore point for me. I have a family who disapproves of WHATEVER I do. It's like a contest. Anything I can do, they are superior. I no longer compete. If they need to be superior I feel sorry for them. But, I personally find it a drag being around people telling me what the "right" thing to do is. The best witness is to live a happy, loving, caring, humble life.

 

Edited January 5, 2016 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Papist]

1 hour ago, little2add said:

he (your catholic friend) was lost and is found, silly 

Don't see the similarity. Sorry.

56 minutes ago, IgnatiusofLoyola said:

Sounds like a really good time. Not. Just as a point of interest, after you brought this up, did you then drop the subject, and go on to have a good weekend? Or, did you continue to bring the subject up?

Simply want to know when it comes time to invite people to my beach house. Not that I have a beach house. So, don't worry, I won't invite you.

Note: I will grant that being told what to do is a VERY sore point for me. I have a family who disapproves of WHATEVER I do. It's like a contest. Anything I can do, they are superior. I no longer compete. If they need to be superior I feel sorry for them. But, I personally find it a drag being around people telling me what the "right" thing to do is. The best witness is to live a happy, loving, caring, humble life.

 

No. I did not say I tell them what to do.  No. I do not go on and on, and I don't bring it up again, even year after year, I do not bring it up. Brought up in 2003, and don't need to bring it up again. Yes. We went on and had a great beach trip and still do every year.

"The best witness is to live a happy, loving, caring, humble life."  I believe Christ is calling me to do more.