40 years later, is it time to reconsider the religious habit?

[BarbTherese]

2 hours ago, Gabriela said:

I disagree with BT that it is easy to explain what it really does mean, and I also think the dominant meaning of "objective" in our language and culture is likely to always creep back in when the word is heard, even for a person who did once learn what it properly means in the Church.

You may well be correct, Gabriela.  The way I think of it is that if I had a list of all vocations and had to arrange them in order superiority, on top of the list would be religious life as the objectively superior vocation of them all as that way of life most conducive to growth in Charity and most closely mirrors the life of Christ on earth and is a "a school of Charity" (Summa Theologica Question 189 Art 1) - and an intellectual exercise only. 

  However, where a person is concerned and the real journey of life, the most superior vocation becomes that vocation to which they are called and this is the subjectively superior vocation for that person. God's Will I think personally is probably most commonly/quite loosely indicated at least initially by the three A's and it is God who gifts the following dispositions, while some may have other indications:

1 - Attraction to the vocation

2 - Ability or motivation to live the vocation

3 - Acceptance into the vocation

I do think that the more educated could define the difference between objective superiority and subjective superiority far better than I have done and far more concisely and accurately.

________________________

Edit: Just occurred to me that the subjectively superior vocation for a person might also be the objectively superior vocation for the person ........... but now I am out of my depth I think.

..........further occurs that one is an intellectual exercise, the other is related to life and living, the journey of an individual.

 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

2 hours ago, Gabriela said:

"objectively superior" is probably not correctly understood by the majority of people who read (rather than post) in the VS. I think that the dominant understanding of "objective" in our society will lead people to interpret a statement of the objective superiority of the RL to mean: "They are officially, without question, proven to be superior to other people". And that is not what it means.

I agree with the above, and once the person arrives at "They are officially, without question, proven to be superior to other people"  it can then lead on to grade all the vocations as designating the grades of superiority throughout the whole Church according to one's vocation and The Church is thought of as a class system.........upper class and lower class.  The problems that flow on from that can be that is a (sometimes unconscious I think) reasoning about spirituality and holiness, the following of The Gospel, that it is the business of the upper classes, while the lower classes just have to live their secular lives keeping the Commandments of God and The Church, nothing more.

Once in Australia the 'lower classes' (the married and laity not in consecrated life)would attend Mass on Sunday and Holy Days and Confession on Saturdays every so often - sometimes family rosary.  Nowadays most often, it is only Mass on Sunday if they can.  Our Sunday Mass numbers will often fall according to sporting functions for example.  However, this past Easter Sunday was packed to the rafters as never before.  Now that might be a good thing, but it might also indicate the opposite.

[BarbTherese]

Just generally speaking, it seems to me that The Church as hierarchy has a need to speak to the well educated and also to the not well educated.  We are all The Faithful.  Probably the not so well educated are in the majority.  The Church as hierarchy in addressing a particular subject or subjects sometimes, even most often, largely is speaking in terms more for the well educated and those not so well educated can get things wrong, misunderstand.......or will ignore Church documents altogether gleaning any information from media......all kinds of media, any kind of media.

Most often, I can only read Church Documents for example with a dictionary open.

If The Church 'looses' the not so well educated then it seems to me the loss is a loss in the majority of The Faithful.

 

Edited April 23, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[beatitude]

Barbara and I have been in touch by PM and she's asked that I apologise publicly to her for my comments earlier in this thread. I shouldn't have made assumptions about the reasoning behind her posts when I didn't know what it was. I'm sorry for that and for being irritable about it, as well as for upsetting her.

[BarbTherese]

So much for PM's remaining private........I guess Private Message is a misnomer on Phatmass.

My request for a public apology was based on far more than what is stated. It was also about statements made about me personally that are quite untrue.

[beatitude]

Barbara, I did not share the content of your PMs and I don't think mentioning their existence is a violation of anybody's privacy. I have apologised both publicly and privately now and I don't think there is any more I can do. If you aren't happy, please take it up with another moderator. I think I've said all I can here.

[BarbTherese]

So stating publicly that I had asked you to make a public apology via a private message is not disclosing the content of a private message? 

No problem, I'm outta here - and this time I won't return.  Wished I hadn't returned in the first place.  And, laughing here, I have absolutely no illusions about being missed.

[Brother No one]

On 3/15/2016 at 8:23 AM, Sister Leticia said:

Spem - I don't know what country you live in, but the experience of your sister isn't common, at least not here in the UK. In common with the majority of UK religious I don't wear a habit, but I have several friends who do, or who wear some kind of "uniform". We don't make disparaging comments about each others' appearance - in fact, we sympathise with each other about the disparaging comments made by others. One habited friend told me recently that she wished people wouldn't "validate" her as a "proper nun" and assume she has certain attitudes based entirely on what she happens to be wearing, without getting to know her.

Incidentally, my habited friends didn't join their congregations specifically to wear or not wear certain things: they joined because here was the charism and community God was calling them to. They don't regard their habit as "a sacramental", and they're not fearful about changes and modifications and sisters in the community who remove their veils or wear ordinary clothes for their ministry. And they're as weary as I am of people making rude and personal remarks about our appearance, as if there's nothing more to us than what we wear or don't wear - and as if those people have a right to be rude, simply because they have an opinion. (I sometimes wonder how these people would feel if I were to start making disparaging comments and judgements about their appearance!)

Thankfully, though, such rudeness isn't the norm - and I haven't experienced being verbally abused in public, although I do feel under attack when I read online comments, such as those made at the end of the article this thread began with. I was in two minds about whether to come here and comment, but felt I needed to when I read what someone said to Spem's sister - and since I've started writing I've seen Sister Marie's comment and that she has also experienced rudeness. I'm happy to say that most of the people I encounter, and especially many of the young adults I work with, aren't fixated on my clothes. It just isn't an issue. If habits ever get mentioned, it's more about "have you ever worn one?" (no, I haven't) rather than "why don't you?"

So thank you to those who have commented on here in a thoughtful, even-handed way, seeking to maintain civility and respectful dialogue about a subject some people seem to get very worked up about.

Reading this thread has changed my mind about it. Glad i was able to see this.

[adoro.te.devote]

This is a hard topic to discuss... (superiority of states of life)

It's Church dogma that celibacy is superior.. and certain forms of it like cloistered life and religious life may be superior STATES of life, but it's true that we should be where God wants us to be. For example, from what I recall, St Faustina wanted a stricter order, but Jesus told her she needs to be where she is - in the active community. I read about a mystic whom Jesus told that if she had been a nun, she would have been a mediocre nun, and He lead her to private vows in the world instead. Some states are "higher" than others but our path is the one God wants for us, and we need to do His Will. It's fine to seek the most perfect path we can, but sometimes He leads us elsewhere... for instance, I'm also thinking of other Saints, like St Catherine or St Rose, whom God clearly called to be Third Order Dominicans rather than Religious! They also had private vows.

[M. Therese]

On 3/14/2016 at 9:53 AM, DominicanHeart said:

Sisters and Nuns should wear their habits. Honestly I don't like Orders that don't. You wouldn't know they were Sisters by looking at them. And the habits also help them get respect 

I completely agree. All clerics and religious should wear a habit of some kind. They live a different life and that should be reflected in their garb.

I find it interesting that many communities would rather die out completely than admit that discarding their habits and communal life was a huge mistake. Perhaps in God's mercy and understanding their charism is coming to and end. I have full confidence that these communities apostolates and charisms will be sought by newer more traditional founders. There are so many new communities that it's hard to keep up with them all, thanks be to God!

[Anastasia]

I read in the book about a remarkable woman, Gerontissa (Elder or Mother) Gavrielia (1897-1992), a Greek Orthodox nun the following about the monastic habit, from her words:

“Since I was given a habit I stopped telling people about God much because now my habit is speaking. If someone in a habit passed by your house – it is God who is speaking. You are thinking “Here came a priest, nun, a monk”. And there is already no need in preaching or hard attempts to convince. If my example speaks about something to you then it will enter into your soul and there is no need to say anything”.

That was my translation. I also remember, that the same Mother said “What did change with a habit? I received great freedom in being anonymous. “Some nun said… some nun did…”.

I think a habit gives not only that kind of freedom but also another one, of not thinking of what to wear. It is also a reminder to a nun of who she is and to others. Finally, it invites people to talk to her about God or about their lives, their problems (it is common in Orthodoxy). In our tradition, habit is also a symbol of total renunciation of oneself, being not of this world.

I also can imagine that a traditional habit of different Orders, in the Catholic Church, should be dear as a particular kind of “a uniform” with a distinct meaning being attached (at least it is so for me, re: the brown scapular that given to men bas a sign of belonging to Carmel).

Eastern Orthodox do not have an option of wearing or not wearing the habit. It is simply something to treasure.

PS Just in case - Gerontissa Gavrielia was not "rigid" or whatever. She became a nun later in a life, in her late fifties I think. Until then she was working as physiotherapist in India without charging money, only for food. That was her way of practicing total reliance on God and doing His will. He has lives in leprosarium, hospitals, in the poor house of Hindu, in ashrams etc. Her attitude and ways are anything but "rigid".

42 minutes ago, M. Therese said:

I completely agree. All clerics and religious should wear a habit of some kind. They live a different life and that should be reflected in their garb.

I am glad to read this. I like the term "of some kind". There is no reason why heavy and huge habits cannot be adjusted to the needs but still have its distinctive features which allow to recognize the order.

[Anastasia]

On 4/4/2016 at 1:25 PM, BarbaraTherese said:

I used to wear a cross on a leather thong around my neck, but soon after I first met my SD, he commented that I looked like a nun and so I removed that cross and have never worn it again since.  I am not a nun and have no desire whatsoever to appear to be one in some way.  Nevertheless, I wish I could hit upon something that would not upset anyone and would state without words that I am a Catholic Christian.  I now wear a small cross on a silver chain ............ problem is that a cross on a chain has become in secular society an item of jewellery full stop.

What is "leather thong"? I googled it and it looks like a "leather string". I do not think it is "nun-like", in fact I wear my cross on a leather string because it is practical. It is harder to break than a chain and, in fact, this was a typical way to wear a cross in Old Russia, for a practical treason since many Russians would also wear "obrazok" i.e. an icon on it. A chain was considered to be "vanity". So here we are, there are thousands of opinions, often contrary.

Here, for example - obviously not an advertisement, just to see what those things look like https://gajtan.ru/

[Lea]

8 hours ago, M. Therese said:

I completely agree. All clerics and religious should wear a habit of some kind. They live a different life and that should be reflected in their garb.

I find it interesting that many communities would rather die out completely than admit that discarding their habits and communal life was a huge mistake. Perhaps in God's mercy and understanding their charism is coming to and end. I have full confidence that these communities apostolates and charisms will be sought by newer more traditional founders. There are so many new communities that it's hard to keep up with them all, thanks be to God!

Well, regarding the fact that the Jesuits and many younger congregations in their spirit chose to inculturate themselves very succesfully not only, but also by wearing what honorable men wore whereever they were - I don't think every priest or religious needs a distinct habit. 

In my area Sisters wearing veils often get mistaken for muslim women, so imho whatever religious persons wear should help people identify who they are, and if a religious habit doesn't reach this goal, than they should think about something else. 

Or as a benedictine superior [Fr. Bernhard of St.Anselmo in Rome] puts it: "It's not the habit that makes the monk, but the monk who lives the habit." 

[gloriana35]

This is only a question, not a criticism. Though I do like distinctive clothing for religious, whether one chooses to wear this or not is based on varied reasons, and I respect whichever choice one makes.

Since I've participated on this forum, I've seen references to communities (some apparently of very recent foundation) which have adopted habits similar to those I remember from my childhood (pre-Vatican II.) One community, with which I was acquainted during the 1980s, has changed their simple, modified habit to floor-length with a cape. 

Is there a particular reason why communities are adopting, or returning to wearing, the 'old habit'? 

[futuresister]

Nuns/sisters and brothers absolutely need to wear habits! I won't consider any community that does not wear a habit. Religious are supposed to be witnesses. We are also supposed to witness, but nuns/brothers live a different kind of life than we do.

[Nunsuch]

13 hours ago, M. Therese said:

I completely agree. All clerics and religious should wear a habit of some kind. They live a different life and that should be reflected in their garb.

I find it interesting that many communities would rather die out completely than admit that discarding their habits and communal life was a huge mistake. Perhaps in God's mercy and understanding their charism is coming to and end. I have full confidence that these communities apostolates and charisms will be sought by newer more traditional founders. There are so many new communities that it's hard to keep up with them all, thanks be to God!

Can you let adult human beings decide for themselves what to wear? And if you believe that communities "die" because of what they do or do not wear, you are putting superficials ahead of essentials. Wearing distinctive dress is not a "charism." It is an incidental. And some communities have never worn distinctive garb. 

23 minutes ago, futuresister said:

Nuns/sisters and brothers absolutely need to wear habits! I won't consider any community that does not wear a habit. Religious are supposed to be witnesses. We are also supposed to witness, but nuns/brothers live a different kind of life than we do.

You have every right to make this decision as to where *you* might or might not discern. But you do not have the authority to declare what *all* religious "absolutely need" to do. Give the communities and their members credit for having gone through the serious discernment necessary to come to such a choice.

[Feankie]

Call me silly, but I personally believe it's not the "clothes that make the woman", rather its the way one lives one life --- whether in RL or the secular state.

The condition of one's heart dictates one's behavior and "witness" rather than if if one wears a veil, has a modified habit, pre-Vatican II habit, or no habit at all.

[adoro.te.devote]

13 hours ago, Francis Clare said:

Call me silly, but I personally believe it's not the "clothes that make the woman", rather its the way one lives one life --- whether in RL or the secular state.

The condition of one's heart dictates one's behavior and "witness" rather than if if one wears a veil, has a modified habit, pre-Vatican II habit, or no habit at all.

I don't disagree that what matters is how we live our lives, but sometimes I think about why we have a physical nature at all, and how it's so much connected to our interior and our souls... it makes me think that the exterior is like an expression of the interior.. a nun is still a nun if she doesn't have a habit, but it's a strong witness if she does. Also, I find that exterior signs can be very helpful.. for instance, I wear a crucifix. I don't stop being a Catholic when I take it off, but wearing it puts me in a certain frame of mind, so to speak. I've never worn a habit, but I can imagine it having a strong psychological effect on a person to put it on, and of course it's more than that, because it's a blessed object as well  

Edited November 5, 2020 by adoro.te.devote

[HollyDolly]

Agree with  you there. A lot of them don't advertise. Forgot why i was on the website of the Archdiocese of Newark,NJ. Anyhow they had listed a community named  Sisters of Peace Pentecost. I looked them up and found the website for their retreat house. From the postings and that, I got the sisters were actually korean, and had been around for a very long time. Didn't know they existed.

 New ones spring up and others disappear. That includes some traditional communities which have only a few sisters.Understand the Sisters of St.Joan of Arc  aren't accepting new candidates for example.

As far as habits go, I'm old fashioned and like seeing sisters in some form of religious dress, even if it's just a simple dress and veil, nothing fancy. When I see sisters in secular dress like myself,  that just feels weird. I thought one was supposed to  vow poverty to be as the apostles were. Dressing like any  lay woman costs money,and i don't know seems odd.

As far as the poster who has the muslim friend who wears the tradtional head ware, i can understand  why she feels the way she does when she sees sisters in habits of some kind. She wears hers for religious reasons to show her love of islam her faith.When she see the sisters, she doesn't feel alone. Even though they don't share the same faith, she can relate to their dedication to God and can admire that. 

[Anastasia]

7 hours ago, HollyDolly said:

When she see the sisters, she doesn't feel alone.

A good point. I also have felt not alone when I saw a priest or a nun or a monk is the street on on a plain or just anywhere. It is not just my feeling, many people, even not practicing Christians, express a similar feeling. It is like a reminder of "something more" and a sense of belonging, someone to turn to. Also, people know that a priest or a monastic are for God and being such are supposed to be open to people's needs so one can talk to them - and even if they do not have such a need there is sense of that possibility, of something being open.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Anastasia