Men's religious life 35+

[Gabriela]

I've had communities respond negatively to my education. Some communities can be very anti-intellectual and they think you'll either come in as a know-it-all or you'll get intellectually bored and leave. I think some people also just feel really insecure around a highly educated person, like they think you're judging them all the time. Over the last few years, I've devised conversational strategies to avoid telling people I'm getting a PhD, that I teach in higher ed, etc. I find it's just much more comfortable for some people not to know.

As for bardegaulois' most recent post: I agree with Charbel and Egeria that gradual is the way to go. Communities always seem much more open and impressed by people who actually just show up. Especially if you have to drive a long way, that says something about you—more than anything you could write in a letter. And if you're visiting true monasteries (i.e., where the brothers are enclosed), they'll remember your face, especially if you visit more than once. They'll be curious about you, and so when you finally speak to them, they'll ask you plenty of questions. Just don't spill it all at once, or else it can come across as you trying to impress them, which reads like desperation to get in, which raises flags. Just answer the questions with the most relevant info, and trust it'll all come out in time.

[Nunsuch]

I think it's important to realize that communities vary widely. I realize that you, Bardegaulois, are male, and I'm most familiar with women's congregations. But I am very close to one that requires all candidates either to have an MA in theology or spirituality, or to seek one upon entry. [Obviously, if after entrance, the community is responsible for financing it, although most sisters end up earning an assistantship or something to pay much of the cost.] Virtually everyone in the congregation has at least an MA, and most have more. And many other communities I know are similar. So the anti-intellectualism that Gabriela refers to is not universal by any means.

[Starets]

Holy Cross in Chicago chants the Office in English. Oh and they have nice new choir stalls too! You might wish to have a look at Christ in the Desert as well. They are in the southwest but if you are a vocational prospect they can pick you up at the airport.The abbot drove me from teh airport on my first visit there as he was coming in on a flight a couple hours after mine landed! Thgey follow the full horarium, chant the Office in English and have a reverent liturgy.

[bardegaulois]

On 4/12/2016, 10:00:27, Nunsuch said:

I think it's important to realize that communities vary widely. I realize that you, Bardegaulois, are male, and I'm most familiar with women's congregations. But I am very close to one that requires all candidates either to have an MA in theology or spirituality, or to seek one upon entry. [Obviously, if after entrance, the community is responsible for financing it, although most sisters end up earning an assistantship or something to pay much of the cost.] Virtually everyone in the congregation has at least an MA, and most have more. And many other communities I know are similar. So the anti-intellectualism that Gabriela refers to is not universal by any means.

Perhaps it would be good to make a distinction here, as I don't believe we're dealing with a problem specifically of religious life in general here. After all, certain communities have what could be termed a very professional apostolate that requires certain degrees and certifications, and likewise many communities of men with a clerical focus would insist on readiness for seminary studies before entrance.

The focus here, though, has come to be less religious life in general, but more specifically monastic life, and it's not difficult to see how a scholarly type might occasionally want for stimulation in a monastic environment, which some might often see as repetitive or monotonous. Nonetheless, our witness of the amazing scholarship that has come out of monasteries throughout the Church's history shows that this is not necessarily so. Again, there really is no Benedictine "order," as we often think of it, and thus every house, being independent, will have a different personality. So perhaps (and I'd ask Gabriela, Egeria, and Charbel to comment upon this), it's an issue best resolved house to house, a more general rule not really existing. Any thoughts?

[Nunsuch]

Well, I've visited numerous Benedictine communities, both male and female, and I've not run into anti-intellectualism in any of them. Consider, for instance, the number of monasteries (female and male) that run schools and colleges. The nuns at St. Ben's in St. Joseph, MN, also have a Studium, in which scholars come for short term sabbaticals (I've stayed there), and are also welcome to participate in the liturgical life of the community. I think Beech Grove, Indiana, also has similar facilities. The Carmelites I know well--Baltimore, Indianapolis, Cleveland--have extremely large libraries and also rely on nearby university and public libraries when their own collection doesn't suffice.  I honestly don't see anti-intellectualism as a widespread problem--but perhaps there are some communities where it is the case. The ones I know welcome active and well formed minds....

 

[Gabriela]

I do think this is an issue best pursued from house to house. As Nunsuch says, while there are certain orders that you would never (likely) find anti-intellectualism in, the work that a particular house pursues in order to make ends meet may rule out serious study for any of its members. I should think that's the case for any house engaged in agriculture that has relatively few members, for example. Agriculture is so time- and labor-intensive that it's likely they have "all hands on deck", even if they appreciate and wish they had time for more study. Such would be the case, I suspect, for any house that is struggling to support itself.

@Nunsuch: Some more traditional women's houses tend to be anti-intellectual. My SD is a former Carmelite who has said to me on many occasions that the Carmelites can be quite anti-intellectual. I have also found that to be so, but only in some houses. This is just an example, and not something that's unique to Carmelites, and not relevant to bardegaulois, but I just make the point to clarify that it does exist.

[Nunsuch]

Oh, I know some houses may be anti-intellectual, but the majority are not. For example, among Carmelites in the US (I'm not so familiar with other countries), there are notable scholars in Baltimore (e.g., Constance FitzGerald) and elsewhere, and I think of the late Vilma Seelaus who was in Barrington. 

Gabriela, you raise another interesting issue: are "more traditional" communities more likely to be anti-intellectual? If so, I wonder why? I would hope that scholarship and intellectual pursuit would not become associated with a particular world-view.... Maybe this should be pursued in a separate thread. As you know, most (but by no means all) of my research is focused on communities that are, today, somewhat less traditional, but it would concern me if newer and more traditional groups take this kind of approach.

[RafaelCordero]

1 hour ago, Nunsuch said:

but it would concern me if newer and more traditional groups take this kind of approach.

Please don't cast aspersions on newer and more traditional groups or the approach they are taking.

I mean this seriously.

[bardegaulois]

3 hours ago, RafaelCordero said:

Please don't cast aspersions on newer and more traditional groups or the approach they are taking.

I mean this seriously.

I'd think it more likely that a traditional Catholic would want an aspersion cast before Mass...

In all seriousness, though, I don't see anyone attacking the reputation of any specific group. I see only statements that certain congregations or monasteries may not emphasize the life of the mind, and that some might be concerned, as Egeria noted, that those with an intellectual bent "would [not] find enough intellectual stimulation in their community." It's a valid concern that I'm actually pleased that many have.

[Gabriela]

4 hours ago, Nunsuch said:

Gabriela, you raise another interesting issue: are "more traditional" communities more likely to be anti-intellectual? If so, I wonder why? I would hope that scholarship and intellectual pursuit would not become associated with a particular world-view.... Maybe this should be pursued in a separate thread. As you know, most (but by no means all) of my research is focused on communities that are, today, somewhat less traditional, but it would concern me if newer and more traditional groups take this kind of approach.

I think they do tend to be, yes, at least in my experience. Traditionalist Catholics tend to have a very Victorian notion of womanhood, and extensive study isn't a part of that. I have noticed this in some traditionalist women's houses. They "know their place" relative to the men and emphasize a very domestic-looking way of life. Regina Laudis seems like an exception to this. I'd love to hear of others.

I doubt very much that this affects the men's traditionalist houses, though. They're men!

 

3 hours ago, RafaelCordero said:

Please don't cast aspersions on newer and more traditional groups or the approach they are taking.

I mean this seriously.

Let's not get nasty. She didn't even make a statement, much less "cast" anything. She just asked me a question.

 

9 minutes ago, bardegaulois said:

I'd think it more likely that a traditional Catholic would want an aspersion cast before Mass...

In all seriousness, though, I don't see anyone attacking the reputation of any specific group. I see only statements that certain congregations or monasteries may not emphasize the life of the mind, and that some might be concerned, as Egeria noted, that those with an intellectual bent "would [not] find enough intellectual stimulation in their community." It's a valid concern that I'm actually pleased that many have.

I would prefer an asperGion before Mass, indeed.  

Rafael was carrying another thread's conversation into this one, particularly something that Nonsuch said in that other thread.

[Egeria]

21 hours ago, bardegaulois said:

Nonetheless, our witness of the amazing scholarship that has come out of monasteries throughout the Church's history shows that this is not necessarily so. Again, there really is no Benedictine "order," as we often think of it, and thus every house, being independent, will have a different personality. So perhaps (and I'd ask Gabriela, Egeria, and Charbel to comment upon this), it's an issue best resolved house to house, a more general rule not really existing. Any thoughts?

Bardegaulois, I would not be too worried about Benedictines in general although, as you note, you will need to get a good sense of individual monasteries. Also, although this is not absolute, I agree with Gabriela think that this is more of a problem for women's communities than it is for men's communities. 

In terms of getting to know communities, I think that visiting them without initially speaking about vocation can have some definite advantages. It may mean that you get to know the guest master and possibly other monks, and not simply the novice master and/or vocation director.

It may also be worth asking (perhaps not on your first visit, but once you have established some contact) if you can see their library. While this probably won't be open to guests generally, I would guess that they would be open to allowing it if you could think of some good reasons for consulting it. And a monastic library can tell you quite a lot about a community.

In addition, reading anything that the monks may write (books, articles, blogs, monastery newsletters) can give you an idea about them. I mentioned previously the prior's blog at Holy Cross. While I suspect that is out of your distance range, things like that can give one an insight into the "tone" of a community.

31 minutes ago, Gabriela said:

I think they do tend to be, yes, at least in my experience. Traditionalist Catholics tend to have a very Victorian notion of womanhood, and extensive study isn't a part of that. I have noticed this in some traditionalist women's houses. They "know their place" relative to the men and emphasize a very domestic-looking way of life. Regina Laudis seems like an exception to this. I'd love to hear of others.

I doubt very much that this affects the men's traditionalist houses, though. They're men!

 

Gabriela, I tend to disagree, although it may depend on what we mean by traditionalist, and no doubt varies from place to place and group to group. When I sent my initial letter to various monasteries (that resulted in the frosty response I mentioned), I got a very friendly response back from the novice mistress of the most traditional monastery I had written to (Solesmes Benedictines) in which she described her own experience of discerning while working on her doctorate. And when I visited there it was clear that they valued study.

However, if by traditionalist you are referring to various new groups, who may well look back longingly to Victorian values, then I understand and accept that, not having much experience of them myself. But if one means the older monastic Orders, then I'm not convinced. Anti-intellectualism can be a problem in some places, and I think there are various causes for that. The practical things that you describe (like the demands of farming) account for a lot, especially among Trappists. And the differences between men's and women's communities of the same Order (just contrast their libraries!) are certainly a problem. But in my experience they are the result of a certain history, rather than because the current monastics think women shouldn't study.

From what I have seen of Benedictines, it is actually the more traditionalist (in the broad sense) ones who are most concerned about safeguarding study. But this is also related to economics, for if one is to free up time for study one also needs to know that one has enough to live on. And buy books with... (And so the economics of the community may also be something for @bardegaulois to bear in mind).

I would also add that I have encountered anti-intellectualism in communities that could not possibly have been described as traditionalist. When a community neglects intellectual formation, it becomes vulnerable to manipulation by those who seek to undermine tradition, and who appeal to experience and emotion in doing so. And they succeed because the sisters simply do not know any better. I don't want to get specific, but I have seen this close up and it is devastating. 

 

[NadaTeTurbe]

I have experience with new religious communities that are part of the CHarismatic movement (and when I say charismatic, I mean very charistmatic), and they were very anti-intellectual, on a very unhealthy way. I'll try to post about it tomorrow, it's one of the big reason why I left these communities and the Charismatic Movement (I'm slowly going back, with more healthy communities). 

[Nunsuch]

I was certainly not casting aspersions on anyone. I do, however, find it sad if more traditional groups (women, men, or both) have an anti-intellectual bent. Certainly, monasteries in the Middle Ages were legendary as centers for the preservation and creation of knowledge! I would think that intellectual rigor is something that has no ideology (though individual intellectuals well might).  As for Victorianism, well, I just finished writing a scholarly article on the intellectual contributions of sister-educators in the Victorian era and late 19th century.  Gabriela (and others) I will let you know if/when it is accepted for publication, as it currently is under consideration.

[Sponsa-Christi]

One thought I had on women's religious communities and intellectual life---I think there is quite a big cultural difference between encouraging education so that the Sisters can be competent teachers, and encouraging a lively intellectual life so that one can read on the level of a professional theologian. (I've noticed this a lot in catechetical circles.) 

[Gabriela]

2 hours ago, Nunsuch said:

Certainly, monasteries in the Middle Ages were legendary as centers for the preservation and creation of knowledge! I would think that intellectual rigor is something that has no ideology (though individual intellectuals well might).

That's a great point. I was just sitting in on a primer in Dominican spirituality today, and I've been reading about Cistercians, and I wondered: Can it be said that Dominicans emphasize intellectual contemplation of God more, whereas Cistercians emphasize experiential contemplation of God more? It seems reasonable (no pun intended) to me, but I'm not sure. Anyone with deep knowledge/vast experience (sorry again!) of the two, please comment.

 

2 hours ago, Sponsa-Christi said:

One thought I had on women's religious communities and intellectual life---I think there is quite a big cultural difference between encouraging education so that the Sisters can be competent teachers, and encouraging a lively intellectual life so that one can read on the level of a professional theologian. (I've noticed this a lot in catechetical circles.) 

Also a great point. And there certainly is a difference between encouraging study for a practical reason (say, related to the community's apostolate) and encouraging study for its own sake.

[Nunsuch]

I certainly appreciate the distinctions above, but would also want to suggest that I do so without implying a value judgment. BOTH approaches to study are, I think, meritorious--although not necessarily for any or all individuals (or communities).

[bardegaulois]

The only true way to find any of this out would be to explore, it seems. I'm now sending out letters to a few houses asking to stay for a few days after the end of the semestre. The letters don't announce that I'm considering the monastic life, but only that I wish to take a retreat. I'll return to those that speak to me later in the summer and announce my intentions after a few visits. Until then, these questions can only be given speculative answers, just as I'm sure other questions may emerge over the next few months.

Thanks again to all who contributed here. I'll likely post a few follow-ups over the coming months.

[TheresaThoma]

23 hours ago, bardegaulois said:

The only true way to find any of this out would be to explore, it seems. I'm now sending out letters to a few houses asking to stay for a few days after the end of the semestre. The letters don't announce that I'm considering the monastic life, but only that I wish to take a retreat. I'll return to those that speak to me later in the summer and announce my intentions after a few visits. Until then, these questions can only be given speculative answers, just as I'm sure other questions may emerge over the next few months.

Thanks again to all who contributed here. I'll likely post a few follow-ups over the coming months.

I'm not sure if this goes for all communities but there can be some benefits of letting a community know you are interested in discerning. I experienced this first hand when I was visiting a community. There was another young woman there who was just on an individual retreat/visiting one of the Sisters and I was there as an "observer" (their term for someone who is discerning with the community). I was allowed to participate in more of the community's activities than she did. I also got the impression that I was allowed to go in certain areas because I was an observer and not just a normal retreatant.

One of the sisters actually told me about another young lady who came for a retreat, she was actually wanting to be more of a discernment visit but she hadn't stated that to the Sisters. So they kind of left her alone thinking she was just there on a personal retreat. A couple days into her stay in one of her conversations her real reason for visiting came out and the Sisters started including her in many more of their activities.

That all said there are some benefits to getting to know a community a bit first before letting them know you are interested in discerning with them                                                                                                                                                                 

[Egeria]

On 4/15/2016, 1:52:43, Gabriela said:

That's a great point. I was just sitting in on a primer in Dominican spirituality today, and I've been reading about Cistercians, and I wondered: Can it be said that Dominicans emphasize intellectual contemplation of God more, whereas Cistercians emphasize experiential contemplation of God more? It seems reasonable (no pun intended) to me, but I'm not sure. Anyone with deep knowledge/vast experience (sorry again!) of the two, please comment.

Gabriela, I'm not sure that I'd accept the distinction between intellectual and experiential here, but that's partly because our understandings of those terms have changed. However, I do think that you point to an important distinction , or better, to a shift that occurred in attitudes towards scholarship in the late Middle Ages. It is not for nothing that Bernard of Clairvaux is often referred to as the last of the Fathers (in the West, that is - in the East the age of the Fathers never closed) and the monastic tradition in the West has preserved more of the Patristic attitude to theology than other later traditions. This is not to say that it is anti-intellectual, but it preserves an older and more integrated understanding of the human intellectual in the search for God.

On text that may be relevant here is Jean Leclercq's The Love of Learning and the Desire for God. (Interestingly, a Google search for the title also brought up this post by the previously mention prior's blog in Chicago - and, no, I'm really not trying to pressure @bardegaulois to investigate them , but I do think it's a worthwhile blog!)

[Br.Sean Taylor]

Are there any communities tear do accept men over 35? Robert TaylorFBR