voiciblanche Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 Okay, so I was going through the threads in the Apologetics section and read the "Free Will" one, where predestination was mentioned, and talked about to a point. Four different people verified predestination as Catholic doctrine. I understand the points made in the thread, and agree with them. I then read the information from New Advent that was linked to in the Reference Section - and I agree with that. I still don't understand how predestination is correct, however. In a Catholic school, I've been taught that it was wrong, so I'm assuming my definition and my teacher's definition of predestination are different than yours and that of the Church, which worries me because I don't want to be believing something that is against Catholic doctrine. Here's what I think of as predestination: God creates human beings, deciding whether they go to Heaven or Hell. They have no choice in the matter; they cannot change their fate by going to Confession, etc, no matter what, they go where God has predestined them to go. This [i]must[/i] be wrong. This can't be the same predestination the Church teaches is true. Anyone care to explain it to me? I'm so confused, and I want to be in line with Church teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hananiah Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 Calvin taught double, unconditional predestination. God picks some to go to heaven, and some to go to hell. That is contrary to Church teaching. Ss. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas taught single, unconditional election. God picks some to go to heaven, and some he passively allows to send themselves to hell. He doesn't predestine them to hell. This is allowed. Louis Molina taught conditional election. God looked into the future, and took what he saw into account before he decided whom to predestine to heaven. This is allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 [quote name='voiciblanche' date='Jun 19 2004, 11:06 AM'] I still don't understand how predestination is correct, however. In a Catholic school, I've been taught that it was wrong, so I'm assuming my definition and my teacher's definition of predestination are different than yours and that of the Church, which worries me because I don't want to be believing something that is against Catholic doctrine. Here's what I think of as predestination: God creates human beings, deciding whether they go to Heaven or Hell. They have no choice in the matter; they cannot change their fate by going to Confession, etc, no matter what, they go where God has predestined them to go. This [i]must[/i] be wrong. This can't be the same predestination the Church teaches is true. Anyone care to explain it to me? I'm so confused, and I want to be in line with Church teaching. [/quote] [quote]I still don't understand how predestination is correct, however. In a Catholic school, I've been taught that it was wrong, so I'm assuming my definition and my teacher's definition of predestination are different than yours and that of the Church, which worries me because I don't want to be believing something that is against Catholic doctrine.[/quote] Your teacher was greviously wrong and needs to read the Letter to the Romans. Romans 8:29-31 [color=blue]For those God foreknew he also [b]predestined[/b] to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. [/color] Romans 9:11-26 [color=blue]Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[4] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[5] 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[6] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[7] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[8] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea: "I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"[9] 26and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "[10] [/color] [quote]Here's what I think of as predestination: God creates human beings, deciding whether they go to Heaven or Hell. They have no choice in the matter; they cannot change their fate by going to Confession, etc, no matter what, they go where God has predestined them to go.[/quote] God foreknew persons as His Own, and those He foreknew, He infallibly predestined to eternal bliss. Those whom He did not predestine, he allows to perish because of their sin. It's simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 Double (Calvin) predestination is wrong. When somebody says predestination, people usually think of Calvin. There is, however, a Catholic form of predestination, which is discussed in this article: [url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ120.HTM"]http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ120.HTM[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 ICTHUS, that's the first time you've posted on predestination in which your post actually made complete sense to me lol, most of the time you just confuse me with TULIPs and stuff pAx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 I found this to be the easiest presentation of Catholic predestination to understand: [url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num21.htm"]http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num21.htm[/url] Here are a few select quotes: [quote][b]SUMMARY OF CATHOLIC TEACHING[/b] 1. God knows all things, including those who will be saved (THE ELECT). 2. God's foreknowledge does not destroy, but includes, free will. 3. God desires all men to be saved. 4. Jesus died to redeem all men. 5. God provides sufficient grace for all men to be saved. 6. Man, in the exercise of his free will, can accept or reject grace. 7. Those who accept grace are saved, or born-again. 8. Those who are born-again can fall away or fall into sin. 9. Not everyone who is saved will persevere in grace. 10. Those who do persevere are God's elect. 11. Those who do not persevere, or who never accepted grace, are the reprobate. 12. Since we can always reject God in this life, we have no absolute assurance that we will persevere. 13. We can have a moral assurance of salvation if we maintain faith and keep God's commandments (1 John 2:1-6; 3:19-23; 5:1-3,13).[/quote] [quote][b]CALVINISM AND CATHOLICISM CONTRASTED[/b] Calvin : God's sovereignty determines the will. Catholic : God's sovereignty includes free will. Calvin : Predestination as predetermination. Catholic : Predestination as infallible foreknowledge. Calvin : God desires only the salvation of the elect. Catholic : God desires the salvation of all. Calvin : God provides grace only to the elect. Catholic : God provides grace to all, though not all accept it. Calvin : Christ died only for the elect. Catholic : Christ died for all men. Calvin : God predetermines some for hell. Catholic : Men merit hell by their own wickedness. Calvin : The elect include all those born-again. Catholic : The elect are those who persevere to the end. Calvin : Grace co-opts human free will. Catholic : Grace perfects the free will that cooperates. Calvin : Those in grace (born-again) can't fall away. Catholic : Those in grace can freely sin and lose grace. Calvin : The elect will unfailingly persevere. Catholic : The elect are those who have persevered. Calvin : The elect are assured of their salvation. Catholic : Yes, but only God knows who they are. Calvin : Predestination eliminates merit and guilt. Catholic : Predestination includes merit and guilt.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voiciblanche Posted June 19, 2004 Author Share Posted June 19, 2004 Okay, thank you very much ICTHUS, Hananiah, and thedude. I understand it perfectly now. When school starts, I shall be having a little chat with my theology teacher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 that seems to be increasingly common amoung Catholic Theology people who talk to kids, me and a friend were just talking about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 [quote]Calvin : Christ died only for the elect. Catholic : Christ died for all men.[/quote] Why's it say that His blood is shed for "the many" in the Eucharistic Prayer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 hmm... you not in line with the ICEL? well, that's a good thing in a way, the ICEL messed it up. but still in the scripture the prase is for "the many" and in the original language that's an idiomatic expression that means for "the people" meaning all. But for many is also good in the sense that only many will receive the benefit, while He did it for all to make those benefits available to all only many will actually accept them. pAx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 Then why not change it to be more accurate for us today? I know in the new translation coming out, that's one of the things set to be changed back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 the entire point of my post was to show that BOTH WAYS are accurate. He died for many in the sense that only many will receive it, so looking at it from the perspective of us looking at Jesus, He died for many. Looking at it from the perspective Jesus looking at us, He died for ALL. He knew only some would accept it, but He saw every single sinner and did it for them, so they'd have a chance to accept it (even though He foreknew some wouldn't accept it) "many" is theologically correct and was explained by the Council of Trent, "all" is theologically correct and supported by the meaning of the idiomatic expression in the scriptures, and i'm sure there's some council i could show to affirm that but i don't feel like looking. Christ died for All, the Eucharistic Blood is poured out for many. The Eucharistic Blood is AVAIABLE to all, though. pAx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 LoL, Me=devil's advocate* *Not a job I think I could live up to in real life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 didn't the Catholic Church coin that phrase with an office specifically dedicated to investigating why someone SHOULDN't be cannonized? yeah, i believe that was us. we should get royalties everytime someone uses it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 My Theology advisor met one of them once... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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