Predestination

[ICTHUS]

[quote]didn't the Catholic Church coin that phrase with an office specifically dedicated to investigating why someone SHOULDN't be cannonized?  [/quote] I don't think being cannonized sounds like fun. I wouldn't like to be shot out of a cannon.

[Quietfire]

[quote]God creates human beings, deciding whether they go to Heaven or Hell. They have no choice in the matter; they cannot change their fate by going to Confession, etc, no matter what, they go where God has predestined them to go.[/quote]

Wow, Is this what Calvin taught?
Glad I never learned it.

We always have the choice, although we may choose wrong (sin) and we may not even realize we are choosing wrong. How often has someone jusified their wrong actions, and never 'got the point''? God knows though.
Confession only 'works' when one is truly, truly repentent. If one goes just to 'clean house', so to speak, and there is no honesty in the act of repentance, (and of course the priest doesnt know this) then confession is actually a waste for them, since they are not sincere.
God also knows this though.

We always have a choice, and sometimes the choices are tough.
And God knows this too.

Peace.

[VeraMaria]

Thanks for posting the contrasts between the Catholic and Calvin's POV, thedude. That helps with some questions a friend had! Gracias!

[ICTHUS]

VeraMaria, I would rephrase some of thedudes ways of comparing Calvinism with Catholicism.

[quote]Calvin : God's sovereignty determines the will.
Catholic : God's sovereignty includes free will.[/quote]

To the extent that everyone has control over their actions, yes. Everyone has free will. Only Christians, however, have [i]liberty of the will.[/i] There is a key distinction.

[quote]Calvin : Predestination as predetermination.
Catholic : Predestination as infallible foreknowledge.[/quote]

This is also incorrect. Predestination includes infallible foreknowledge and predetermination, cf. Romans 8:28-31

[quote]Calvin : God desires only the salvation of the elect.
Catholic : God desires the salvation of all.[/quote]

Yes, though not all are Elect.

[quote]Calvin : God provides grace only to the elect.
Catholic : God provides grace to all, though not all accept it.[/quote]

Rather, I would say that the unelect do sin by [i]rejecting[/i] grace. I think we are passive in our salvation unless we sin against it, like a river sweeping you towards a dock. You can choose to swim against the river, but if you just float, you'll eventually get to the dock.

[quote]Calvin : Christ died only for the elect.
Catholic : Christ died for all men.[/quote]

The Thomistic doctrine of limited efficacy of the atonement teaches that though Christ died for all, the atonement will only be efficacious in bringing about the salvation of the Elect.

[quote]Calvin : God predetermines some for hell.
Catholic : Men merit hell by their own wickedness.[/quote]

In Augustinian thought, the Elect are predestined, and God simply passes over the rest - the [i]Massa Damnata[/i]

[quote]Calvin : The elect include all those born-again.
Catholic : The elect are those who persevere to the end.[/quote]

One and the same - one must be born again [i]in order[/i] to persevere - one must persevere in the state of being born again. This is really a battle of semantics.

[quote]Calvin : Grace co-opts human free will.
Catholic : Grace perfects the free will that cooperates.[/quote]

Rather, I would say that grace prompts the will to co-operate.

[quote]Calvin : Those in grace (born-again) can't fall away.
Catholic : Those in grace can freely sin and lose grace.[/quote]

Yes - and it is only because of His grace that they are able to recover it.

[quote]Calvin : The elect will unfailingly persevere.
Catholic : The elect are those who have persevered.[/quote]

A battle of semantics, really. However, those whom God has called according to His purpose will infallibly persevere, as Augustine teaches. In this sense, Calvin was right.

[quote]Calvin : The elect are assured of their salvation.
Catholic : Yes, but only God knows who they are.[/quote]

Yep.

[quote]Calvin : Predestination eliminates merit and guilt.
Catholic : Predestination includes merit and guilt.[/quote]

Not if you're a Thomist or an Augustinian - predestination is [i]ante praevista meritas[/i] (before foreknowledge of merits)

[Apotheoun]

A few points of clarification on the doctrine of justification are necessary.

First, the Augustinian position has not be endorsed by the Magisterium [i]in toto[/i], thus one must balance the Augustinian viewpoint by reference to the teachings of the other Church Fathers, of both east and west. In fact, in the Eastern Catholic Churches, which are in communion with the Pope, the Augustinian doctrine has had little or no influence in the theology of man's justification by grace. Eastern Catholic theology focuses on the doctrine of justification as the beginning of the process of [i]theosis[/i], whereby man is deified by grace and made a partaker of the divine nature. [cf., 2nd Peter 1:4]

Second, as to the views of the Augustinians and Thomists about predestination being before the divine foreknowledge of supernatural merits ([i]ante praevista meritas[/i]), this has not been endorsed by the Magisterium as the only possible position that a Catholic may hold on this topic, therefore it is wrong to ascribe to it a position equivalent to a defined doctrine of the faith; instead, it is a theological opinion.

Third and finally, the Church rejects the notion of man as merely passive in his own salvation. Grace is always primary in the order of salvation, but free will, [i]restored[/i], [i]perfected[/i] and [i]elevated[/i] by grace, truly participates in the supernaturally meritorious works performed by a man in a state of grace, so that it is true to say that the supernatural works performed are wholly by grace, and yet they are also wholly performed by man. They are gifts of God, and yet they are also inherently ours. As St. Paul said, "It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me," and this being so, all the things done by a man who is incorporated into Christ's Body, are done, [i]in[/i], [i]with[/i], and [i]through[/i] Christ; and it should be noted that this truth was pointed out to Luther in his meetings with Cardinal Cajetan in 1517. In addition it should be pointed out that the view of man as merely passive in his own salvation was rejected and condemned by the Tridentine Fathers in the [u]Decree on Justification[/u] when they infallibly declared that in the preparation for justification ". . . in adults, the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits on their part, they are called; that they who by sin had been cut off from God, may be disposed through His quickening and helping grace to [i]convert themselves[/i] to their own justification [i]by freely assenting to and cooperating with that grace[/i]; so that, while God touches the heart of man through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, [i]man himself neither does absolutely nothing while receiving that inspiration, since he can also reject it, nor yet is he able by his own free will and without the grace of God to move himself to justice in His sight[/i]." [Trent, [u]Decree on Justification[/u], chap. 5] The Catholic doctrine that man can cooperate in his own salvation accounts for the fact that man can grow in the justification that he has received from God, for as the Fathers of Trent defined, "Having, therefore, been thus justified and made friends and domestics of God, advancing from virtue to virtue, they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day, that is, mortifying the members of their flesh, and presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification, they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified." [Trent, [u]Decree on Justification[/u], chap. 10] The Tridentine Fathers went on to declare that our actions performed in a state of grace are meritorious, for "to those who work well unto the end and trust in God, eternal life is to be offered, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Christ Jesus, and as a reward promised by God Himself, to be faithfully given to their good works and merits. For this is the crown of justice which after his fight and course the Apostle declared was laid up for him, to be rendered to him by the Just Judge, and not only to him, but also to all that love his coming. For since Christ Jesus Himself, as the head into the members and the vine into the branches, continually infuses strength into those justified, which strength always precedes, accompanies and follows their good works, and without which they could not in any manner be pleasing and meritorious before God, we must believe that nothing further is wanting to those justified to prevent them from being considered to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained in its due time, provided they depart this life in grace." [Trent, [u]Decree on Justification[/u], chap. 16] Clearly, the Church has rejected any form of a merely passive conception of the doctrine of justification by grace, and to hold that man is merely passive in his salvation is to fall, in varying degrees, under the anathemas of canons 4, 9, 18, 20, 24, and 31, of the [u]Decree on Justification[/u], all of which speak of man's ability to cooperate with grace in the process of his justification and his salvation.

Edited June 20, 2004 by Apotheoun

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote]VeraMaria, I would rephrase some of thedudes ways of comparing Calvinism with Catholicism.[/quote]
I didn't really write those, I copied them from the link I posted above. You might want to go there and see what you think of it.

[Archangel Raphael]

Simply put, it's like this:

God's ultimate Will is for everyone to spend eternity with Him, to have a [i]relationship[/i] with Him. So His WILL and INTENT is for us to go to heaven (at least until the new earth comes). But He also knows the end-run as well, what that person's final choice is gonna be. Yet He loves even them so much that He'd try anyway, giving them a chance to come to Him. See you gotta understand, God has His plans for our life, but we are the ones that make the choice whether to follow His plan, or our plan.

This is why prayer is SOOOOO important! We can change the plans of heaven even with our devout heartfilled prayers. Ya know why I believe this? Look at God and Moses in Exodus 32:10: God was so angry with Israel that He literely told Moses to step aside so He can take them out. But Moses refused and interceded for the people, infact, even reminded God of His promise! I think that verse alone shows how much power we really have as Children of God, and remember, the Holy Spirit didn't dwell in people in the Old Testiment either. Imagine how much power and authority we have today! There are other verses that I believe refer to this subject but I just wanted to show an example.

But it's very important to pray for the unsaved or those who aren't walking right with the Lord. Which this is why I believe in praying to the Saints as well, cause if they are in heaven with a perfect mind, then they can't forget to pray for a person you ask them to pray for. Though that doesn't give us the excuse to stop praying either, but that's good in case you forget to pray lol.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 20 2004, 11:01 AM'] A few points of clarification on the doctrine of justification are necessary. 

First, the Augustinian position has not be endorsed by the Magisterium [i]in toto[/i], thus one must balance the Augustinian viewpoint by reference to the teachings of the other Church Fathers, of both east and west.  In fact, in the Eastern Catholic Churches, which are in communion with the Pope, the Augustinian doctrine has had little or no influence in the theology of man's justification by grace.  Eastern Catholic theology focuses on the doctrine of justification as the beginning of the process of [i]theosis[/i], whereby man is deified by grace and made a partaker of the divine nature. [cf., 2nd Peter 1:4]
 
Second, as to the views of the Augustinians and Thomists about predestination being before the divine foreknowledge of supernatural merits ([i]ante praevista meritas[/i]), this has not been endorsed by the Magisterium as the only possible position that a Catholic may hold on this topic, therefore it is wrong to ascribe to it a position equivalent to a defined doctrine of the faith; instead, it is a theological opinion. 

Third and finally, the Church rejects the notion of man as merely passive in his own salvation.  Grace is always primary in the order of salvation, but free will, [i]restored[/i], [i]perfected[/i] and [i]elevated[/i] by grace, truly participates in the supernaturally meritorious works performed by a man in a state of grace, so that it is true to say that the supernatural works performed are wholly by grace, and yet they are also wholly performed by man.  They are gifts of God, and yet they are also inherently ours.  As St. Paul said, "It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me," and this being so, all the things done by a man who is incorporated into Christ's Body, are done, [i]in[/i], [i]with[/i], and [i]through[/i] Christ; and it should be noted that this truth was pointed out to Luther in his meetings with Cardinal Cajetan in 1517.  In addition it should be pointed out that the view of man as merely passive in his own salvation was rejected and condemned by the Tridentine Fathers in the [u]Decree on Justification[/u] when they infallibly declared that in the preparation for justification ". . . in adults, the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits on their part, they are called; that they who by sin had been cut off from God, may be disposed through His quickening and helping grace to [i]convert themselves[/i] to their own justification [i]by freely assenting to and cooperating with that grace[/i]; so that, while God touches the heart of man through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, [i]man himself neither does absolutely nothing while receiving that inspiration, since he can also reject it, nor yet is he able by his own free will and without the grace of God to move himself to justice in His sight[/i]." [Trent, [u]Decree on Justification[/u], chap. 5]  The Catholic doctrine that man can cooperate in his own salvation accounts for the fact that man can grow in the justification that he has received from God, for as the Fathers of Trent defined, "Having, therefore, been thus justified and made friends and domestics of God, advancing from virtue to virtue, they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day, that is, mortifying the members of their flesh, and presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification, they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified." [Trent, [u]Decree on Justification[/u], chap. 10]  The Tridentine Fathers went on to declare that our actions performed in a state of grace are meritorious, for "to those who work well unto the end and trust in God, eternal life is to be offered, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Christ Jesus, and as a reward promised by God Himself, to be faithfully given to their good works and merits.  For this is the crown of justice which after his fight and course the Apostle declared was laid up for him, to be rendered to him by the Just Judge, and not only to him, but also to all that love his coming.  For since Christ Jesus Himself, as the head into the members and the vine into the branches, continually infuses strength into those justified, which strength always precedes, accompanies and follows their good works, and without which they could not in any manner be pleasing and meritorious before God, we must believe that nothing further is wanting to those justified to prevent them from being considered to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained in its due time, provided they depart this life in grace." [Trent, [u]Decree on Justification[/u], chap. 16]  Clearly, the Church has rejected any form of a merely passive conception of the doctrine of justification by grace, and to hold that man is merely passive in his salvation is to fall, in varying degrees, under the anathemas of canons 4, 9, 18, 20, 24, and 31, of the [u]Decree on Justification[/u], all of which speak of man's ability to cooperate with grace in the process of his justification and his salvation. [/quote]
So Musty was right when he said the Church abandoned Augustinian doctrine and embraced semi-Pelagianism at Trent? Ah, okay. That's all the evidence I needed.

Also, how can a person grow in justification? Justification is a declaration, is it not?

Let me put it another way. If Justification is also sanctification, then what is sanctification? Does it come after justification? What's the relationship?

Edited June 20, 2004 by ICTHUS

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Not semi-Pelagianism! Thats heresy! Read this:
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/CAPELAGI.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/CAPELAGI.htm[/url]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jun 20 2004, 01:26 PM'] [1]  So Musty was right when he said the Church abandoned Augustinian doctrine and embraced semi-Pelagianism at Trent? Ah, okay. That's all the evidence I needed.

[2]  Also, how can a person grow in justification? Justification is a declaration, is it not?  Let me put it another way. If Justification is also sanctification, then what is sanctification? Does it come after justification? What's the relationship? [/quote]
I've put your questions into two groups in order to try and simplify this response and keep it to a manageable length.

As far as the first group of questions is concerned, I don't see how you can hold that the Church [i]abandoned[/i] the Augustinian doctrine, when in fact the whole Church never accepted his doctrine. As an Eastern Catholic I can assure that Augustine is merely a footnote in the history of theology in the East. I don't say this in order to disparage the man, after all he is a saint of the Church, but he simply wasn't important in the theological development that occurred in the East, especially in comparison to men like, St. Athanasius, St. Cyril of Alexandria, the Cappadocians, St. Maximos the Confessor, et al. Now, that is not to say that he isn't important in the West, but in the East he had no real impact on theology. It's that simple. So the Church cannot have abandoned Augustine or his theology, since it never endorsed his views fully in the first place. He is one Father among many, and he is not the final word in doctrinal matters, and never has been, because Catholicism did not arise with St. Augustine. That being said, it is clear to me that you either couldn't comprehend what I wrote, which could be due to the way in which I expressed myself, or it could be because you are unfamiliar with the nature of Semi-Pelagianism and Catholicism. I am certainly not the best writer living today, and so the fault may lie with me, but I will try once more to elucidate what I said and clarify things for you if I can.

It should be noted that Semi-Pelagianism taught that man, without the aid of grace, could make the initial act of faith that translated him from a state of mortal sin to a state of grace; now, the teaching of the Council of Trent, which I quoted rather extensively in my previous post, says this about man's initial acts leading to his justification, that ". . . in adults, [i][b]the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ[/b][/i], that is, from His vocation, whereby, [i][b]without any merits on their part[/b][/i], they are called; that they who by sin had been cut off from God, [i][b]may be disposed through His quickening and helping grace[/b][/i] to [i]convert themselves to their own justification by freely assenting to and cooperating [b]with that grace[/b][/i]." [Trent, [u]Decree on Justification[/u], chap. 5] Clearly this teaching is not Semi-Pelagian, nothing about it qualifies it as such, since grace is the gift which empowers man to act, and the acts brought about are done under the impulse of grace which elevates the actions in question to a supernatural level, which is something man alone could never accomplish. But man is not passive in all of this, for he is the one making, through grace, the act of faith, and the conversion is affecting him and is accomplished by a change within him, which he actively pursues under the power of grace. Grace restores, perfects and elevates man's will so that it can act meritoriously in a supernatural manner. In addition, the Semi-Pelagians held that man has a certain [i]natural claim[/i] to grace, that man by natural acts alone can merit an increase of God's grace, but this is not the teaching of Trent, because the Fathers of the Sacred Synod taught that the increase of grace is itself a result of grace working in man. Thus, man keeps the Commandments by the power of God poured into his heart, which increases his holiness and justice before God. Once again man is not passive in all this, for it is man who keeps the Commandments of God through the grace of God, grace all the while empowering man to act, but man is still acting. Even the act of faith itself requires a change in the intellectual status of man, for he moves from unbelief to belief, and this is a truly human act, although accomplished by grace in him, his intellect and his free will cannot be passive or absent in this process. Grace does not turn man into a puppet or a robot. As the Council Fathers said, ". . .to those who work well unto the end and trust in God, eternal life is to be offered, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Christ Jesus, and as a reward promised by God Himself, to be faithfully given to their good works and merits. For this is the crown of justice which after his fight and course the Apostle declared was laid up for him, to be rendered to him by the Just Judge, and not only to him, but also to all that love his coming. [i][b]For since Christ Jesus Himself, as the head into the members and the vine into the branches, continually infuses strength into those justified, which strength always precedes, accompanies and follows their good works, and without which they could not in any manner be pleasing and meritorious before God[/b][/i]." [Trent, [u]Decree on Justification[/u], chap 16] Thus from moment to moment God infuses into man gifts of grace whereby man can accomplish supernatural acts which are truly meritorious, and these acts, which are gifts of grace, are also truly human in their nature.

As far as the second group of questions is concerned; if you are a Protestant, and if as a consequence you see justification as simply a declaration of justice by God, without any real ontological effect upon man, then I can see how you would be unable to grasp the idea that one can grow in justice. But the Catholic view of justification is ontological in nature, and so that which God declares to be so, is so in reality; thus, when a man is justified he is concomitantly made holy, i.e., sanctified, and this happens simultaneously. The reason that we can grow in sanctity and justice is that God continues to pour out His life and energy upon us, continually opening us to the reception of additional graces, and conforming us more and more to the image of His Son. Salvation in Catholic theology is a process, an ongoing relationship, an ever increasing communion of man with God. In the East this concept is normally called [i]theosis[/i], that is, the deification of man by grace, whereby man becomes a partaker of the divine nature and grows in the divine likeness ([i]theoeideis[/i]). [cf., 2nd Peter 1:4] This process of growth will only end when man dies and final [i]theosis[/i] occurs, i.e., when man enters into the beatific vision of God. If justification is a legal fiction, then growth in justice and holiness is not possible. But this bizarre notion of justification as a legal fiction has never been the teaching of the Church's Magisterium. Instead, Catholic tradition has always held that justification and sanctification are two sides of the same coin, and so when a man is made just, that is, when he is translated from a state of sin to a state of grace, he is also made holy at the same time. But since man is by nature a finite creature, he is open to growth in this new supernatural state of being. In other words, this new divine life existing within man can increase as he is made more and more Christlike, only reaching its completion in his full deification by grace in glory of the Shekinah. So that, what Christ is by nature, man becomes by grace. Man becomes a son of God in the only begotten Son of God. For as the Church Fathers, including St. Augustine, pointed out, "God became man, so that man might become God." [St. Augustine, Sermo 13 de Tempore, from [u]The Office of Readings[/u], page 125, (Boston: St. Paul Editions, 1983)] Of course, none of this is possible if justification is merely a legal fiction, and man is only called just when in reality he remains sinful. Nothing which in reality is sinful can ever participate in the divine nature. This view of salvation, that is, the idea that man is drawn up into the very life and energy of God, and is brought into a real state of communion with Him, is not possible when one holds that Christ's righteousness is merely imputed to man, without in any way really changing and recreating man in an ontological sense. In a theological system where Christ's righteousness is only imputed to man, and where man's sins are not really removed, but are only covered over; the idea that man could be elevated from a natural plane of existence to a supernatural one is impossible. In that type of theology, God becomes a liar, saying that man is holy when in fact he is not, and saying that he has been forgiven, when in fact his sins have not been remitted. Neither scripture nor the Church Fathers teach this erroneous view of justification and salvation; because both scripture and the Fathers teach that what God declares to be so, is so.

Let me conclude by saying something of a more personal nature. For 26 years I was a Protestant, and I accepted the concepts of imputed righteousness, the non-imputation of sin, forensic justification, fiducial faith, etc. But as I studied scripture and the Fathers of the Church, I realized that neither of these sources taught any of these doctrines. I came to see that the Reformation doctrine was, and is, a theological novum. Perhaps, someday, you too will see that, but clearly at the present time you are enamored with the theological nominalism of the Reformation, i.e., with the attempt to reduce the mysteries of the faith to rational categories of thought that somehow encapsulate in an absolute sense the reality of the mystery in a formula, but this ultimately removes all that is truly mysterious within the mysteries of the faith. But of course God cannot be put into a box, because He far exceeds any human intellectual comprehension, and as the Eastern Fathers are found of saying in their normal antinomic manner . . . . . God is comprehensible, and yet He is incomprehensible. Theological paradox is something that Protestantism cannot stomach, for it is a religion of human invention, created 487 years ago by Luther, and Calvin, et al.

Edited June 21, 2004 by Apotheoun

[Hananiah]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jun 20 2004, 09:37 AM'] Calvin : God's sovereignty determines the will.
Catholic : God's sovereignty includes free will.

To the extent that everyone has control over their actions, yes. Everyone has free will. Only Christians, however, have liberty of the will. There is a key distinction. [/quote]
Could you clarify the distinction?

[quote]Calvin : Predestination as predetermination.
Catholic : Predestination as infallible foreknowledge.

This is also incorrect. Predestination includes infallible foreknowledge and predetermination, cf. Romans 8:28-31[/quote]
I agree.

[quote]Calvin : God desires only the salvation of the elect.
Catholic : God desires the salvation of all.

Yes, though not all are Elect.[/quote]
Agree again.

[quote]Calvin : God provides grace only to the elect.
Catholic : God provides grace to all, though not all accept it.

Rather, I would say that the unelect do sin by rejecting grace. I think we are passive in our salvation unless we sin against it, like a river sweeping you towards a dock. You can choose to swim against the river, but if you just float, you'll eventually get to the dock.[/quote]
This is against Catholic teaching. God brings about salvation by working in the will and with the will, such that the will is active during the process. How exactly this works is a mystery: we do not recieve salvation passively, nor do we contribute anything over and above grace. Like Christ being fully God and fully man, its something we won't understand this side of heaven.

[quote]Calvin : Christ died only for the elect.
Catholic : Christ died for all men.

The Thomistic doctrine of limited efficacy of the atonement teaches that though Christ died for all, the atonement will only be efficacious in bringing about the salvation of the Elect.[/quote]
Agreed. [i]Pro multis[/i] does not mean for all.

[quote]Calvin : God predetermines some for hell.
Catholic : Men merit hell by their own wickedness.

In Augustinian thought, the Elect are predestined, and God simply passes over the rest - the Massa Damnata[/quote]
Yes. Calvin, however, did not allow for the separation between what God actively willed to come to pass and what He passively allowed to come to pass. Thus he conceived the massa damnata not as merely being passed over but as being predestined to hell.

[quote]Calvin : The elect include all those born-again.
Catholic : The elect are those who persevere to the end.

One and the same - one must be born again in order to persevere - one must persevere in the state of being born again. This is really a battle of semantics.[/quote]
Not entirely. In Catholicism there are some who are born again but do not persevere. "But if someone [b]already regenerate and justified[/b] should, of his own will, [b]relapse into his evil life[/b], certainly that man cannot say: “I have not received”; because he [b]lost the grace he received from God[/b] and by his own free choice went to evil." (Augustine, Admonition and Grace, A.D. 426 aut 427)

[quote]Calvin : Grace co-opts human free will.
Catholic : Grace perfects the free will that cooperates.

Rather, I would say that grace prompts the will to co-operate.[/quote]
I think most everyone would like to do good and be saved. But it is slavery to sin which prevents us from doing so. God's grace frees us from this slavery, thus making our will free in the truest sense of the word.

[quote]Calvin : Those in grace (born-again) can't fall away.
Catholic : Those in grace can freely sin and lose grace.

Yes - and it is only because of His grace that they are able to recover it.[/quote]
Again, agreed.

[quote]Calvin : The elect will unfailingly persevere.
Catholic : The elect are those who have persevered.

A battle of semantics, really. However, those whom God has called according to His purpose will infallibly persevere, as Augustine teaches. In this sense, Calvin was right.[/quote]
Yes, this is just semantics.

[quote]Calvin : The elect are assured of their salvation.
Catholic : Yes, but only God knows who they are.

Yep.[/quote]
Yep. "I assert, therefore, that the perseverance by which we persevere in Christ even to the end is the gift of God; and I call that the end by which is finished that life wherein alone there is peril of falling. Therefore it is uncertain whether any one has received this gift so long as he is still alive. For if he fall before he dies, he is, of course, said not to have persevered; and most truly is it said." (Augustine, On The Gift Of Perseverance)

[quote]Calvin : Predestination eliminates merit and guilt.
Catholic : Predestination includes merit and guilt.

Not if you're a Thomist or an Augustinian - predestination is ante praevista meritas (before foreknowledge of merits)[/quote]
True, but I'm not sure if this apologist meant what you think he meant. Calvin believed that predestination excluded the possibility of merits, whereas in Catholicism God predestines some to obtain merits. This might be all he meant.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hananiah' date='Jun 21 2004, 11:32 PM'][quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jun 20 2004, 09:37 AM']Calvin : God's sovereignty determines the will.
Catholic : God's sovereignty includes free will.

To the extent that everyone has control over their actions, yes. Everyone has free will. Only Christians, however, have liberty of the will. There is a key distinction.[/quote]
Could you clarify the distinction?
[/quote]
Although he tends to use "Reformed" terminology in talking about these things, he may be distinguishing between the natural order and the supernatural order. Thus, [i]liberty of the will[/i] in the truest sense, i.e., as it concerns man's ultimate end (God), belongs only to those that have been regenerated by the supernatural gift of sanctifying grace.