Challenging The Origins Of Christianity & Judaism

[Cure of Ars]

I am talking with someone who says that Judaism and Christianity has its origins in pagan/ Egyptian religion. I know most of the arguments rely on the Post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy but I want some historical facts to support this. Does anyone have any good links for this?

She is also saying the Jesus was not a person but only a myth. Do we have info on this?

Also, Phatcatholic, I think it would be helpful to have a section on logic errors and critical thinking.

Thanks for the help

[crusader1234]

Well, in Genesis 12, God comes to Abram and says leave everything I'm showing you something new... thats one pretty clear example.

[url="http://jewfaq.org/origins.htm"]This might help a little bit...[/url]

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Josephus, Suetonius, Tacitus, and Pliny the Younger, wrote about a group of people in their time who followed a recently crucified man called "Chrestus". I also don't see how a person would spread the gospel in the Roman Empire, just to get crucified for doing so.

The pagan origins thing just sounds goofy to me. Its probably the same junk from [i]The DaVinci Code[/i] (like Isis inspiring Mary pictures, etc.). Its all bogus, check out [i]Fact and Fiction in the DaVinci Code[/i] by Steve Kellmeyer.

Edited June 20, 2004 by thedude

[MorphRC]

Here's some quotes: Outside Sources - Non-Biblical

[b]Josephus. A Jewish historian writing AD 66 -[/b]

'It was at that time a man appeared - if 'man' is the right word - who had all the attributes of a man but seemed to be something greater. His actions certainly were superhuman for he worked such wonderful and amazing miracles that I for one cannot regard him as a man; yet in view of his likeness to ourselves I cannot regard him as an angel either'

[i]This is a Christian writing, but its non-biblical, so if they want to listen they;ll take notice of these:[/i]

[b]Ignatius of Antioch- Disciple of Saint Peter & Paul[/b]

"Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (ibid., 18:2).

"[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is" (Letter to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]).

[b]Pope Clement I - Disciple of Saint Paul[/b]

"Then the reverence of the law is chanted, and the grace of the prophets is known, and the faith of the Gospels is established, and the tradition of the apostles is preserved, and the grace of the Church exults" (Letter to the Corinthians 11 [[b]A.D. 80[/b]]).

[b]The Didache[/b]

"You shall not waver with regard to your decisions [Sir. 1:28]. Do not be someone who stretches out his hands to receive but withdraws them when it comes to giving [Sir. 4:31]" (Didache 4:5 [A.D. 70]).

[b]NOTE:[/b]

[i]I attached the whole Didache, the top pic may have an X, didnt load the pic with it, but the text still works.[/i]

[b]The Letter of Barnabas[/b]

"Since, therefore, [Christ] was about to be manifested and to suffer in the flesh, his suffering was foreshown. For the prophet speaks against evil, ‘Woe to their soul, because they have counseled an evil counsel against themselves’ [Is. 3:9], saying, ‘Let us bind the righteous man because he is displeasing to us’ [Wis. 2:12.]" (Letter of Barnabas 6:7 [A.D. 74]).

[b]Clement of Rome[/b]

"By the word of his might [God] established all things, and by his word he can overthrow them. ‘Who shall say to him, "What have you done?" or who shall resist the power of his strength?’ [Wis. 12:12]" (Letter to the Corinthians 27:5 [ca. A.D. 80]).

[b]NON-RELIGIOUS[/b]

[b]Pliny - writing in AD 112 -[/b]

In a letter to the Emperor Trajan, the Younger Pliny complains that there was a slump in the agricultural markets because people were no longer buying beasts for sacrifice. This was the fault of people called 'Christians', who formed secret society and refused to offer sacrifice to the god-emperor.

[b]Tacitus - writing in early 2nd century 115AD-132AD[/b]

The Roman historian Tacitus wrote that Christians had been made a scapegoat for the great fire of Rome in the reign of Nero[64AD]. Their founder was a criminal who had been excuted by Pontius Pilate thirty years or so earlier. Unfortunately, the death of the ringleader had not stopped the mischief!

See If I can find somemore.

paul.

[MorphRC]

More.

[b]Josephus. A Jewish historian writing AD 66 -[/b]

[b]
Antiquities of the Jews

BOOK XX

CONTAINING THE INTERVAL OF TWENTY-TWO YEARS.
FROM FADUS THE PROCURATOR TO FLORUS.

CHAPTER 9.
CONCERNING ALBINUS UNDER WHOSE PROCURATORSHIP JAMES WAS SLAIN; AS ALSO WHAT EDIFICES WERE BUILT BY AGRIPPA.[/b]

Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned:....

Thats all I can find.
paul

[Cure of Ars]

Thanks for the help.

[MorphRC]

No Problemo

[Crusader_4]

Wow great thanx for the Didache i had never got around to reading it till you posted it and now i have placed it in my favourites! Its going to come in real handy thanx!

[MorphRC]

[color=red][b]Complete Didache HTML with Picture[/b][/color]

30KB

Edited June 21, 2004 by MorphRC

[Crusader_4]

The previous didache you posted was it the complete version?

[MorphRC]

[quote name='Crusader_4' date='Jun 21 2004, 01:29 PM'] The previous didache you posted was it the complete version? [/quote]
Yes. The Complete Didache Text was there, but the credits of translation and the Pic up the top werent there. So thought Id better keep the credits on.

[Cure of Ars]

Here is a good one on the historical proof of Jesus


[url="http://css.catholicexchange.com/truthtract.asp?qid=79"]http://css.catholicexchange.com/truthtract.asp?qid=79[/url]

[Crusader_4]

I must say i am amazed at it its much shorter and simple to read then i had thought to be and one can see some really orthodox teachings in there i can even get why its so highly regarded yet not quite canoncial...amazing book.

[MorphRC]

[quote name='Crusader_4' date='Jun 21 2004, 02:05 PM'] I must say i am amazed at it its much shorter and simple to read then i had thought to be and one can see some really orthodox teachings in there i can even get why its so highly regarded yet not quite canoncial...amazing book. [/quote]
It was canon for the majority of Christians, but still never got accepted, the word Eucharist in Scripture would have come in handy for ya's against prots.

Edited June 21, 2004 by MorphRC

[Crusader_4]

I noted that as well as the phrase its not an exact quote but "in regards to presumption of the soul" and also the other good point with the forgiveness of sins as well as baptism...great book any idea who actually wrote it or are there any theories floating around?

[MorphRC]

[b]The Didache - Doctrines of the Twelve Apostles[/b]

[b]Microsoft Encarta 2004 - Didache
© 1993-2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.[/b]

[b]Didache[/b] (Greek, “teaching”), ancient Christian manual of instruction, also called Teaching of the Twelve Apostles. It was probably written in Syria during the 1st century, although some critics have estimated a later date of composition. The document was unknown until its discovery in 1873 and its publication in 1883 by Philotheos Bryennios, Greek metropolitan of Nicomedia.

The Didache is a compendium of moral precepts, of instructions on the organization of Christian communities and of regulations pertaining to liturgical worship. It contains the oldest recorded eucharistic prayers and directives on baptism, fasting, prayer, and the treatment of bishops, deacons, and prophets. Revered by many early Christians as equal in importance to the books of the New Testament, the Didache was used to instruct converts. Today it serves as a valuable source of information about early Christian life and belief.

[b]New Advent - Didache. - Catholic Encyclopedia[/b]

[b](DOCTRINE OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES) [/b]

A short treatise which was accounted by some of the Fathers as next to Holy Scripture. It was rediscovered in 1883 by Bryennios, Greek Orthodox metropolitan of Nicomedia, in the codex from which, in 1875, he had published the full text of the Epistles of St. Clement. The title in the MS. is Didache kyriou dia ton dodeka apostolon ethesin, but before this it gives the heading Didache ton dodeka apostolon. The old Latin translation of cc. i-v, found by Dr. J. Schlecht in 1900, has the longer title, omitting "twelve", and has a rubric De doctrinâ Apostolorum. For convenience the contents may be divided into three parts: the first is the "Two Ways", the Way of Life and the Way of Death; the second part is a rituale dealing with baptism, fasting, and Holy Communion; the third speaks of the ministry. Doctrinal teaching is presupposed, and none is imparted.

The Didache is mentioned by Eusebius after the books of Scripture (H. E., III, xxv, 4): "Let there be placed among the spuria the writing of the Acts of Paul, the so-called Shepherd and the Apocalypse of Peter, and besides these the Epistle known as that of Barnabas, and what are called the Teachings of the Apostles, and also . . . the Apocalypse of John, if this be thought fit . . ." St. Athanasius and Rufinus add the "Teaching" to the sapiential and other deutero-canonical books. (Rufinus gives the curious alternative title "Judicium Petri".) It has a similar place in the lists of Nicephorus, Pseudo-Anastasius, and Pseudo-Athanasius (Synopsis). The Pseudo-Cyprianic "Adversus Aleatores" quotes it by name. Unacknowledged citations are very common, if less certain. The "Two Ways" appears in Barnabas, cc. xviii-xx, sometimes word for word, sometimes added to, dislocated, or abridged, and Barn., iv, 9 is from Didache, xvi, 2-3, or vice versa. Hermas, Irenæus, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen seem to use the work, and so in the West do Optatus and the "Gesta apud Zenophilum". The Didascalia Apostolorum (q. v.) are founded upon the Didache. The Apostolic church ordinance has used a part, the Apostolic Constitutions have embodied the Didascalia. There are echoes in Justin, Tatian, Theophilus, Cyprian, and Lactantius.

[b]DATE:[/b]

Since in that work the visit of an apostle or of a pretended apostle is contemplated as a not improbable event, we cannot place the book later than about [b]80[/b].

The limit, would seem to be from [b]65 to 80[/b].

Bartlet agrees with Ehrhard that 80-90 is the most probable decade. Sabatier, Minasi, Jacquier, and others have preferred a date even before [b]70[/b].

[b]PLACE OF COMPOSITION[/b]

As to the place of composition, many suggest Egypt because they think the "Epistle of Barnabas" was written there. The corn upon the mountains does not suit Egypt, though it might be a prayer borrowed from Palestine. There are really no materials even for a conjecture on the subject.

[color=red][b][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04779a.htm"]WHOLE TEXT HERE[/url][/b][/color]

[b]New Jerome Biblical Commentary, 2nd Edition[/b]

[b]Pg 1050 [66:79-84] - Canonicity[/b]

[b]83 -[/b] We have already mentioned some apocryphal gospels, epistles, and acts that recieved acceptance for a certain period. We should note that the subapostolic writings, like 1-2 Clem, Did., Herm., and Barn. continued to be considered Scripture even into the 4th and 5th cents. The Alexandrian Fathers seem to have thought of 1 Clem. as Scripture. The 4th-cent. Codex Sinaiticus contained, along with the we consider canonical, Barn and Herm. The 5th-cent. Codex Alexandrinus had 1-2 Clem. And we can see why such works were highly valued. Many of them bore the names of disciples of the apostles, e.g., Barnabas was a friend of Paul; Clement was thought to be the Clement mentioned in Phil 4:3 and a successor of Peter in Rome. Moreover, early subapostolic works, like 1 Clem and Did. may well have been written before a NT work like 2 Pet. The real difficulty is not why such works were thought of as canonical but why the church did not finally accept them as canonical.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Composition work of many Apostles it seems.
paul

[Crusader_4]

Great thanx for all the help i read the whole thing at New Advent as this is something that deeply interests me thanks for you spending the time on this MorphRc it has really paid off for me thanx yet a gain !

[phatcatholic]

as for the charge that christianity is pagan, these may help:

[i]"The Church is Pagan"[/i]
--[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Is_Catholicism_Pagan.asp"]Is Catholicism Pagan?[/url]
--[url="http://members.tripod.com/frjoe/bigot4.htm"]Is the Roman Catholic Church Christian?[/url]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ377.HTM"]Is Catholicism Half-Pagan?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/otherihs.html"]Do Catholics Worship Another Jesus?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/christian.html"]Is the Catholic Church Christian?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan1.html"]Is the Blessed Trinity a Pagan Concept?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan2.html"]Is the Incarnation a Pagan Concept?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan3.html"]Is the Virgin Birth Pagan?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan4.html"]God's That Die?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan5.html"]Is Marian Devotion Pagan?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/marian12.html"]Mariolatry???[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp"]Saint Worship?[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp"]Do Catholics Worship Statues?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan7.html"]Do Catholics Worship the Sun?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan8.html"]Are Christmas and Easter Pagan?[/url]
--[url="http://www.knight.org/advent/cathen/03724b.htm"]Christmas[/url]
--[url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a99.htm"]Santa or Satan?: Reply to a Funny Fundamentalist [/url]
--[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05224d.htm"]Easter[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/HALLWEEN.HTM"]Halloween: Its Origins and Celebration[/url]
--[url="http://answers.org/Issues/Halloween.html"]What about Halloween?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/ex204.html"]Graven Images?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/acts1025.html"]Pope Worship?[/url]
--[url="http://www.cathinsight.com/apologetics/adventism/sunbursts.htm"]Of Sunbursts, Baals, and Adventist Paranoia[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicapologetics.net/Borrowing_from_the_Pagans.htm"]Did the Catholic Church "Borrow Many Items from the Pagans"?[/url]

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Crusader_4]

Hey MorphRC are you Catholic because it appears to me your thought process and beliefs are very Catholic....cuz under ur avatar it says Non Catholic

[cmotherofpirl]

We have more proof for the existance of Jesus than most other historical figures.