Why can some Catholics be such hypocrites?

[Aragon]

Hi all, I am sorry to use this forum to vent but I don't really know who else I could tell in my real life who would understand this situation. If any of you remember from my previous posts I experience same sex attraction and returned to the Church this year. My country is currently holding their elections and last night I was out having drinks with a friend from church, his friend (also from our church) and a secular friend of mine.

We were talking about the election and I mentioned I cast my vote for the more conservative party and my secular friend (who knows I am Catholic but is kind of oblivious to what all that means) said "how could you vote for x? You're gay!" My church friend knows this and is okay with it, but the other guy from church didn't. It was awkward for a bit and the conversation moved on but after fifteen minutes the guy I don't know from church left kind of suddenly. This morning I was asking my friend why he left early and it turns out he was uncomfortable being around me because of my sexual attractions and (quoting my friend who was quoting this other guy) "I'd prefer not to spend my Saturday night in that type of company".

I know that this one person's behaviour isn't a reflection on the entire Church, but I'm just feeling pretty lousy at the moment and would appreciate your prayers.

 

 

[Guest]

Yeah that's pretty bizarre. Jesus ate with prostitutes. And being gay in and of itself isn't even a sin. Only hooking up is and looking with lust. The Church calls being gay disordered which I don't have a problem with. Although I can see how it would anger some. The guy who left is out of line. I wouldn't worry about someone like that. Again Jesus ate with prostitutes and told parables about them entering the Kingdom of Heaven before certain people who thought they had it all together in their own eyes. This guy sounds like one of them. Not trying to compare gays and prostitutes and say they're alike. Prayers.

Edited July 3, 2016 by Guest

[truthfinder]

It may be part of the on-going problem with what exactly to call same-sex attraction.  I think most Catholics will hear 'gay' and assume, uncharitably, that one is a 'practicing homosexual' for lack of a better term. But I think there's also a weird, sometimes particularly male fear, that being gay might even be 'contagious' -- if you have gay friends, that must mean you're gay too. It's a weird masculinity thing.

[Guest]

I am very sorry you have experienced what you have, Aragon - and that it has left you hurt.  Very sorry indeed and in the one place on earth where you should feel safe and secure, loved and appreciated, valued.

The Church is not a club for saints, rather a hospital for sinners.  Even our greatest saints called themselves sinners and for sound and valid reason.

I suffer mental illness. Hence in a similar way to your experience, I have experienced the same -  i.e. stigmatization.  Yours is discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.  I think it likely that you will probably experience forms of discrimination/stigma as a potential as long as your sexual orientation is known in the current social atmosphere anyway - and also very sadly in The Church still as well.  At the same time, and be all the previous as it may, there is also, I feel, a growing number in society and in The Church who do have correct information and healthy and soundly informed attitudes to the differences in others and without trace of discrimination or stigmatizing.

Stigma and discrimination is based on incorrect information and is hurtful and even cruel.  My way of dealing with stigma has been to recognise that the other person has the problem and to internalise the latter is a journey most often (not an overnight event usually) until one feels comfortable and rather sad and compassionate for the other that they are journeying in life with illusion (unreal view of reality) on the subject of stigma and discrimination..  I am also very much 'out the closet' as it were re my mental illness (bipolar disorder) and do try to share correct information quite openly whenever opportunity presents.

The gay community as well as the community of sufferers of MI are quite active today and public about it in continuing efforts to inform society correctly on the issues and this is probably the only way that stigma and discrimination can be eventually eradicated both in society and in The Church.  Very sadly and wrongfully (morally wrongly) if one is going to communicate correct information quite openly, one might need to share one's orientation or illness etc. and this, today, could invite stigma and discrimination.

The problem today can be in sharing correct information openly is that the other thinks and knows I have incorrect info, just as I think and know I have the correct info.  And wherever there is conflict, truth in the situation might be engaged in the struggle to be heard.

The need to listen and hear and the need to speak and be heard.  Time and prayer.

God bless and I hope and pray that your hurt and pain will soon pass.  United to Jesus and His Cross, as you probably know already, makes what you are suffering now contribute to the redemption of souls.

PS  Being right 'out the closet', I can still experience stigma and discrimination both in society and in The Church.

Edited July 3, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[Guest]

Quote

The Church calls being gay disordered

Any sin at all, mortal or venial, our imperfections, are a disordering of identity for we are created for God and His Glory.  We all without exemption need His Mercy and most direly and desperately.  The Church as hierarchy has an obligation, responsibility and accountability to present truth to the Universal Church and wherever She identifies truth.  The more The Church does this, the more I can recognise that I am sinful here or sinful there - or both.  We are all sinners without exception at all -  and that is a universal truth underscored by Scripture: Romans 3:23 "All have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God."

I have related this story from the Desert Fathers more than once because it is a story that really speaks to me.  Paraphrased: "A young monk committed a rather serious offence in his community and was banished from choir for a month.  A few days down the line and the abbot's council noticed that the abbot was also missing in choir.  Concerned, they decided to approach him in his cell to enquire about his health.  The abbot's reply was brief and simple;  "I too am a sinner". (Another way to say it is "Who am I to judge?")

Why do I consider myself a lesser sinner than any other? (Parable of the Publican and The Sinner - Luke 18P:10http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PX1.HTM )

Edited July 3, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[Guest]

You don't have to convince me how horrible of a sinner I am. Just went to Confession yesterday. I thought the Catechism specifically called it disordered. Am I getting it mixed up?

[Guest]

Sorry Josh, tried to reply but softwear will not let me.  I'll try later.

[Guest]

Just now, BarbaraTherese said:

Sorry Josh, tried to reply but softwear will not let me.  I'll try later.

It's all good. My reply said being gay is disordered. I meant the attraction. That is what the Church calls disordered correct? Not the person.

[Guest]

Thanks Josh, The CCC states, "objectively disordered".  Go to CCC #2357 to #2359".  I can't understand why I can reply now but I still cannot post my original reply.

 

If you mean by "called it" homosexuality or same sex attraction (gay), this is what the CCC states……see CCC #2357 to #2359 (take out links and see if I can post).

If I can, it is my original post.

So your comment is basically correct, Josh, in that the CCC states "objectively disordered" and I did not mean to challenge your statement.  What I wanted to point out is that we are all disordered by virtue of sin and imperfection i.e. our identity is disordered by virtue of sin - or not as God has created us to be and will be in Heaven.  The CCC does point out too and my general comment on the subject only, nothing to do with your post, Josh: "Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained." - I think this probably still does apply. I probably have not said it theologically spot on or in theological language, I wouldn't know.  I think my meaning is probably there hopefully.  Theological language/terminology is a theology specialist's language of its own often and can be confusion to a layperson trying to understand his or her Faith.  We have one meaning culturally, while the theology specialist's might have an entirely different meaning.

I know what you mean about (examination of conscience and then) Confession, Josh.  Nothing like a good and regular Confession to keep one grounded and where it is really at - for one only.

It would be very sad if this thread moved away from the very personal and painfull subject Aragon has raised - and my fault and hijack.

[Guest]

As I've said previously my own personal feelings say that if God created all these people to be born with same sex attractions then it seems unreasonable to say they're disordered and that the gay person can't have a partner or adopt children. That's my first instinct but I disregard it and go with what the Church teaches. I haven't had to bear this cross so I can't imagine how tough it is for the person who has to deal with this. Although it does worry me how almost everyone (Catholics included even Priest's and Bishops) are in support of gay marriage and gay couples being able to adopt. This is probably why this guy acted like that and left. He definitely is in the wrong unless something in the story is being left out. I don't think that's the case. I believe Aragon is telling the story exactly how it happened. I think the guy was probably just frustrated and handled it completely wrong. Jesus would of ate and had drinks with someone who was gay. He wouldn't of left abruptly and made condescending remarks. But I can't cast stones at that guy because I rarely do what Jesus would of done in a given situation. If I was Jesus those legions of angels would have been called down asap in the garden and I would of never hung and been tortured and killed on a cross.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

On a side note I would ask your secular friend why he put you on blast like that? I'm not saying you should be ashamed of being gay but shouldn't you tell people on your terms? Why does he feel the need to put it out there like that?  Seems a little obnoxious. Out of curiosity is he gay?

40 minutes ago, Josh said:

then it seems unreasonable to say they're disordered 

 

 

 

 

I keep meaning to say the attraction or whatever. Not the person. 

Edited July 3, 2016 by Guest

[NadaTeTurbe]

First of all, I'm really sorry you experienced that. It's rude from your secular friend to out your, first, and more rude from the other guy to do that. 

I've had similar experience. I've had a disordered sexual life before going back to chastity. I don't brag about it, but I don't hide it either, I want to be honest about my past. Anyway, I naively thought that the good catholics guys from my catholic schools would be accepting, and would not treat me according to my past, and I was wrong. Most of the guys were like that. It was harder with the girls : one of them told me it was good I was discerning religious life, because a catholic boy would never marry a non-virgin. But two of the boys - it was hard. They stopped talking to me, called me names when I wasn't here, when one the guy invited me to a restaurant for my birthday, they told him "we all know why you're inviting her". They treated me the same way the secular guys I used to sleep with treated me. It was hard, because, for me, good catholics are "perfect". I could not imagine that someone raised catholic would treat me like a seculary boy. I thought they were all Jesus-like : forgiving, loving, understanding. Turned out, they're very human, and faith doesn't protect you from intolerance. The only thing to do is to rely on God and Jesus - not human. If you're a little different, you're going to be rejected by some people. But Jesus calls us to take our cross to follow him. When you read it the first time, you just think "nice image, Jesus", but when you live it, it becomes real. Pray, fast, try not to hate or be angry : remember the fruits of the Holy SPirit ! Remember that you are loved by God your father : human love is not as great as God's love ! You're in my prayers  

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, NadaTeTurbe said:

. The only thing to do is to rely on God and Jesus - not human. If you're a little different, you're going to be rejected by some people.

Very well said, Nada, well said.  I am sorry too that you have gone through what you have which must have been devastating. Obviously you have been on a journey I suspect, to arrive at where you are now.  You are now able to share the experiences you have undergone and valuable fruits of your journey with others.  Thanks heaps.

Your first sentence above reminded me of Psalms 146 and 118 "Put not your trust in princes, in human beings, they cannot save" ....... and ,..... "It is better to take refuge in The Lord than to trust in human beings".  Both these lines from the Psalms are in the Divine Office and prayed regularly.  And the words of Scripture assume full power most often when one puts them into practise as you have done. Seems to me you are a witness to the power of Scripture.  Walk tall.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Josh said:

On a side note I would ask your secular friend why he put you on blast like that? I'm not saying you should be ashamed of being gay but shouldn't you tell people on your terms? Why does he feel the need to put it out there like that?  Seems a little obnoxious. Out of curiosity is he gay?

I keep meaning to say the attraction or whatever. Not the person. 

I do understand and understood your meaning.  I like the "or whatever" too!  I love theology, despite the fact that at times the distinctions it may make and the definitions applied can be so confusing to me.  "Or whatever" is a very handy term for me.

[Ice_nine]

as to the original query, because Catholics are people too.

14 hours ago, truthfinder said:

It may be part of the on-going problem with what exactly to call same-sex attraction.  I think most Catholics will hear 'gay' and assume, uncharitably, that one is a 'practicing homosexual' for lack of a better term. But I think there's also a weird, sometimes particularly male fear, that being gay might even be 'contagious' -- if you have gay friends, that must mean you're gay too. It's a weird masculinity thing.

I also heard a radio personality say that straight men can be homophobic because they know how men can typically view women as sex objects and being an object of that type of lust is repulsive to them. Kinda makes some sense to me.

[PhuturePriest]

The (few) men I've seen who are uncomfortable being around men with SSA say they are uncomfortable because they feel they are being mentally undressed and lusted after. The only proper response is, of course, "Get over yourself -- you're not even that good-looking."

Also, of course, if a straight guy thinks a man with SSA is lusting after him just because he's looking him, that reflects more on the straight guy, since it implies he's lusting after every girl he sees and assumes the guy with SSA is the same way.

Edited July 3, 2016 by PhuturePriest

[Gabriela]

Like others, Aragon, I'm sorry that happened to you. It was wrong of that guy.

The good news is, he still has opportunity to realize what a judgmental jerk he was, and what an open, honest guy you are. I can understand how, for someone who's lived a sheltered life, discovering that one is sitting at table with a man with SSA can be jarring. If it's the first time that happened to him, he probably just didn't know how to respond, so he walked away. I do that when I'm caught really off guard, to prevent me from doing things that are worse. But that says more about his life than it does yours.

And it means he now has time to think about how he responded, and how he ought to respond in future. At least, that's what I always do when I've walked away. If you come across him again, showing him that you understand (or are trying, at least), and take no offense, and love him in spite of his misunderstanding and judgment of you—doing that can help this guy see how wrong he was, and how you're actually being the better Christian in this situation.

I'll pray that you find the strength to do that, and that he find the humility to recognize his error, and that you both learn to love each other as the brothers in Christ that you are.  

 

And btw: If we can't vent on Phatmass, God help us!

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

On 7/3/2016 at 11:02 AM, Aragon said:

Hi all, I am sorry to use this forum to vent but I don't really know who else I could tell in my real life who would understand this situation. If any of you remember from my previous posts I experience same sex attraction and returned to the Church this year. My country is currently holding their elections and last night I was out having drinks with a friend from church, his friend (also from our church) and a secular friend of mine.

We were talking about the election and I mentioned I cast my vote for the more conservative party and my secular friend (who knows I am Catholic but is kind of oblivious to what all that means) said "how could you vote for x? You're gay!" My church friend knows this and is okay with it, but the other guy from church didn't. It was awkward for a bit and the conversation moved on but after fifteen minutes the guy I don't know from church left kind of suddenly. This morning I was asking my friend why he left early and it turns out he was uncomfortable being around me because of my sexual attractions and (quoting my friend who was quoting this other guy) "I'd prefer not to spend my Saturday night in that type of company".

I know that this one person's behaviour isn't a reflection on the entire Church, but I'm just feeling pretty lousy at the moment and would appreciate your prayers.

 

 

Hypocrisy perhaps stems from a lack of catechisis, and a lack of understanding of holy scripture and sacred tradition or even the desire to investigate these. But also Jesus says that there will be wolves in sheeps clothing and goats. And to add also that the whole world is full of hypocrites, nothing new, and i fear perhaps the number has increased drastically of these within Holy Mother Church due to pagan, atheist and agnostic influence on Gods children from Television, Moving Pictures, The Media, Documentaries and the Music industry, we are in the desert of Sin worshiping a whole host of Golden calves (idols), many to varying degrees have chosen the Kingdom of this world over the Kingdom of Heaven. Just my opinion and i could be wrong.

We perhaps need to gather far more often in Jesus name, as God is Love and we can not truly Love properly without God, and perhaps the idols and sin is not necessarily the major problem though of course still problematic but the problem is the lack of Love.

 

Onward Christian souls.

God is Good, God is Love.

Jesus iz LORD!

[Anomaly]

Because everyone is hypocritical at times.  Catholics and others with principles happen to have identified standards that make it easier to find examples of hypocrisy.  If you don't really stand up for anything, or have preferences, you can't be hypocritical.  It's a dilemma  for Catholics to be kind and tolerant on one hand, but not be approving  or seem to be condoning or encouraging in the other, when it comes to sexual behaviors, perceived or actually taking place.  Since you're Catholic too, than count this as one of the 7x70 times to forgive hypocrisy.  

[franciscanheart]

I'm so sorry to hear this happened to you. You are so loved. Nothing about you is disgusting or wrong; you are who you are, and it seems to me, you're pretty great. Do not allow the ignorance of one man to lead you to doubt your dignity, or your worthiness. You are worthy. You are enough.

Pray for him, that he may come to see that those different from him need not be avoided or despised. He left because he did not truly know you, or understand what it means to be homosexual.

He did not run from you because you are who you are; he ran from you because he could not see who you are.

 

I pray the peace of Christ overwhelms you today. Much love and many hugs from Texas.

Edited July 5, 2016 by franciscanheart

[Guest]

Yep, we Catholics are only people too - and to me a secular rationalisation.   "I am only human - or he/she is only human" .....often heard.  It can be a reason, but no excuse.  I think if I am going to claim Catholicism and don't live up to the Gospel and The Faith nor perhaps think I really have to do so, because I am only a person and human too, I am doing more damage to The Church and The Gospel than almost anything else.  I might have thousands of excuses or attempts at excuses for my failures - some even valid perhaps affecting my personal moral disposition.............. but that is not going to affect (ever in play) cause and effect..........in fact my failures (absolutely independent of my motivations, dispositions and excuses) becomes the cause of the effect, whatever it might be.

Even some Catholics (consciously or even unconsciously) claim a higher moral standard and behaviour - and so it has seeped into Catholic and also secular cultural consciousness and unconsciousness that we claim to be and are higher morally than anyone else and that we think that our behaviour is also.  Rather, Catholicism is not a "club for saints but a hospital for sinners".  What needs to happen is to engage in the struggle to overturn the damage done by conscious or unconscious internalised thinking that we are indeed a club for saints.  I think Pope Francis sights this well and is trying very hard to communicate it...........but first one has to listen to the whole man - and hear him.  We need to have ears that can hear: "Listen, you that have ears to hear" (Matthew Ch11)

8 hours ago, franciscanheart said:

 

I pray the peace of Christ overwhelms you today. Much love and many hugs from Texas

............and Australia..

I hope, @Aragon, and my prayer is that your "pretty lousy" feelings are passing - although I can well empathise at why you were feeling as you were. 

Edited July 6, 2016 by BarbaraTherese