Contemplative life and Mental Illness

[truthfinder]

45 minutes ago, Gabriela said:

Or An Infinity of Little Hours (based on the true stories told the author by Carthusian monks), where one guy literally lost his mind and started pulling his hair out and engaging in all kinds of other self-harmful behaviors, and another guy obsessed in a totally crazy way over other people's trivial chant mistakes.

Prayers for you, Pax! 

Same thing happened in Mother Angelica's biography - she was chased by crazy nun with a large knife. Only one of a number of incidents that the community had with the unstable sister. 

Edited August 17, 2016 by truthfinder

[Sponsa-Christi]

I'm just asking because I'm curious, but in the discernment of a contemplative vocation, would a distinction be made between an "organic" (as in, pre-existing and not necessarily caused by any outside factor) metal illness and a reaction to a traumatic situation? E.g., would someone who struggled with serious long-term grief after the death of a close relative be in a different situation/category discernment-wise than someone who had always suffered from depression regardless of their life circumstances? 

Edited August 17, 2016 by Sponsa-Christi

[Gabriela]

1 hour ago, Sponsa-Christi said:

I'm just asking because I'm curious, but in the discernment of a contemplative vocation, would a distinction be made between an "organic" (as in, pre-existing and not necessarily caused by any outside factor) metal illness and a reaction to a traumatic situation? E.g., would someone who struggled with serious long-term grief after the death of a close relative be in a different situation/category discernment-wise than someone who had always suffered from depression regardless of their life circumstances? 

Well, I should imagine that the "always" case would be rejected more readily, whereas the "only since that thing" case may be told to go off and heal, the come back when better. But while either is in the grips of the problem, I can't imagine entrance would be permitted.

[Antigonos]

Putting on my medical hat for a moment, I think there are a number of issues here, some are related to others.

First of all, the actual cause of "clinical depression" is still not really understood.  Sometimes it seems to run in families.  I had a friend whose mother developed severe depression during her menopause, and the doctors thought it related to that [menopausal women have significantly higher levels of depression, and that in itself is interesting: is it brought about by changing hormonal status or just that the realization that one "chapter" of one's life is closing and another, often less pleasant, is opening?].  But in her thirties, my friend also became seriously depressed and is taking lithium [with good results] even to this day.  There are those whose depression seems to be related to a specific event; remove the cause, remove the problem.

I've noticed, over the years I've been here on this phorum, a number of discerners who admit to having struggles with depression.  Could it be related to the anxieties and/or frustration resulting from the deep desire to enter religious life, which often takes years to identify and the often the long period of discernment itself?  In which case, finding a compatible community and being accepted by it may actually reduce those factors leading to depression, as one gains a sense of fulfillment.  Or, quite possibly, the exact opposite, as has been noted by several of you already.  Monastic life is certainly a pressure cooker, especially in small, enclosed communities.

Finally, not to cast doubt on anyone's vocation, in particular, but there are certain psychiatric problems which manifest themselves occasionally as religious phenomena: hearing heavenly voices or having what are apparently visions.  A person may have an isolated episode, or recurring ones, and be absolutely convinced that these are manifestations of a Divine nature.  Afraid of being mocked, the person may not tell anyone, go into religious life, and then have a complete breakdown.  Sisters are not psychologists, and often can't distinguish early warning symptoms, and don't know how to cope with unusual behavior, which can make a bad situation worse.

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, Antigonos said:

Sisters are not psychologists, and often can't distinguish early warning symptoms, and don't know how to cope with unusual behavior, which can make a bad situation worse.

[lmsb1231]

Try the Poor Clares in Santa Barbara...  I think some communities will be open but they want to know it's well managed enough for you to live the life without excessive difficulty and that somehow you'd be able to receive all the meds while in the convent

Try the Poor Clares in Santa Barbara...  I think some communities will be open but they want to know it's well managed enough for you to live the life without excessive difficulty and that somehow you'd be able to receive all the meds while in the convent

[TheresaThoma]

I don't have a mental health issue but I do have a condition that will require medication for the rest of my life. From my experience with communities the things they want to know is what exactly is the condition, what is the treatment and if that is compatible with their lifestyle, and the cost. Also how long you have been stable for.

One thing that I reminded myself is that God would not call me to something I cannot do. So I started viewing my condition as just another discernment tool.It is hard to hear "no" from a bunch of communities but it was a quick and easy way to know I should move on. In some ways I started seeing it as a grace. There were a couple of communities that I was kind of torn about discerning with but I quickly found out they couldn't accept me with my medication so I just moved on. It felt good to shut that "door". 

I don't have a mental health issue but I do have a condition that will require medication for the rest of my life. From my experience with communities the things they want to know is what exactly is the condition, what is the treatment and if that is compatible with their lifestyle, and the cost. Also how long you have been stable for.

One thing that I reminded myself is that God would not call me to something I cannot do. So I started viewing my condition as just another discernment tool.It is hard to hear "no" from a bunch of communities but it was a quick and easy way to know I should move on. In some ways I started seeing it as a grace. There were a couple of communities that I was kind of torn about discerning with but I quickly found out they couldn't accept me with my medication so I just moved on. It felt good to shut that "door". 

[Antigonos]

Let me ask a question.  Let's say someone needs a chronic medication -- oh, say, for hypothyroidism, a fairly common condition -- but the community doesn't feel it can afford it [it isn't expensive, but over time...].  If a discerner can set up a small fund with her family, perhaps a savings account which will have enough interest income to pay for the medication over the years, would a community look more favorably on that discerner [assuming that is the only obstacle to admittance]?

Let me ask a question.  Let's say someone needs a chronic medication -- oh, say, for hypothyroidism, a fairly common condition -- but the community doesn't feel it can afford it [it isn't expensive, but over time...].  If a discerner can set up a small fund with her family, perhaps a savings account which will have enough interest income to pay for the medication over the years, would a community look more favorably on that discerner [assuming that is the only obstacle to admittance]?

[Gabriela]

18 hours ago, Antigonos said:

Let me ask a question.  Let's say someone needs a chronic medication -- oh, say, for hypothyroidism, a fairly common condition -- but the community doesn't feel it can afford it [it isn't expensive, but over time...].  If a discerner can set up a small fund with her family, perhaps a savings account which will have enough interest income to pay for the medication over the years, would a community look more favorably on that discerner [assuming that is the only obstacle to admittance]?

In the US, interest rates are practically zero right now, and the cost of medicines is totally unpredictable, especially in the long term.

But I see what you mean: What if they could find some other source to pay for it? Maybe a (young) benefactor or something.

18 hours ago, Antigonos said:

Let me ask a question.  Let's say someone needs a chronic medication -- oh, say, for hypothyroidism, a fairly common condition -- but the community doesn't feel it can afford it [it isn't expensive, but over time...].  If a discerner can set up a small fund with her family, perhaps a savings account which will have enough interest income to pay for the medication over the years, would a community look more favorably on that discerner [assuming that is the only obstacle to admittance]?

In the US, interest rates are practically zero right now, and the cost of medicines is totally unpredictable, especially in the long term.

But I see what you mean: What if they could find some other source to pay for it? Maybe a (young) benefactor or something.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

One problem that I have noticed is that that the prices for medications to treat mental health conditions, even the generic versions, are higher than for maintenance drugs for other medical conditions. For example, I take a generic antidepressant that (for some medical reason I don't understand) greatly reduces my muscle pain from chronic fatigue syndrome. Under my insurance a month's supply costs $40. However, I also take generic blood pressure and diabetes medications, and my copay for these medications is $2.

Granted, these prices are for Medicare Part D, and most young discerners would not qualify for Medicare unless they met the qualifications for Medicare disability (as I do). Someone who currently has different health insurance might know whether prices for mental health medications versus medications for other health conditions show similar patterns in their plans. It wouldn't surprise me if they did. My prescription drug coverage carrier is Aetna, who is a large insurance carrier who offers many different types of health insurance.

In the U.S., health insurance for young nuns/Religious Sisters is a big cost for Communities. So, a Community not only has to consider whether an aspirant who takes mental health medications will have issues with religious life, but also the associated medical costs.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2016 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Guest]

On ‎17‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 8:00 AM, Gabriela said:

The monastery is often likened to a pressure cooker, for two reasons: (1) You're in there all day, with no break, with a whole lot of silence in which to stew in your own thoughts. With a mental illness, and no distractions, this could really tip a person. (2) You're in there all day, with no break, with a whole lot of women who can drive each other crazy. With a mental illness, and sharp objects, this could be very bad.

 (Only I'm serious.)

I agree with you.  Just one point - not every person with a mental illness in an extremely stressful situation with no means of escape (pressure cooker) is a risk around sharp objects as an inevitable likelihood.  The wording could convey the wrong impression completely and incorrect facts on the subject of mental illness.  Unless I have read your meaning incorrectly.

On ‎17‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 11:23 AM, Gabriela said:

Well, I should imagine that the "always" case would be rejected more readily, whereas the "only since that thing" case may be told to go off and heal, the come back when better. But while either is in the grips of the problem, I can't imagine entrance would be permitted.

I do not mean at all to be contentious, Gabriela, as a deliberate motivation and my sincere apologies if it might seem that I am being deliberately contentious.  I entered a monastic religious order in my early forties though suffering bipolar.  The reasoning was (by leadership) that if I did have a monastic vocation, God would heal the situation (bipolar symptoms) for me - and the community.  I wasn't long into my monastic journey when I realised that there was no healing whatsoever at that particular point and that if I should have a serious episode, it would not only be disruptive to the community generally - they probably would have no idea how to handle the situation since a serious bipolar episode has a build up to the an actual psychotic state and disconnection from reality.  I left - not only for that reason alone however.  Bipolar was a contribution to my reasons.

[Guest]

On ‎21‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 0:58 AM, TheresaThoma said:

One thing that I reminded myself is that God would not call me to something I cannot do.

The above is a very important disposition.  If God is calling and no matter to what or where, He will provide absolutely everything necessary - and that is including health requirements.  Sometimes that awakening can take a shift of motivation from what I want and desire and for wonderful and excellent reasons, to what God is indicating.  In my own case, my shift of awareness had to be off myself and what I wanted, to an understanding that because of bipolar, God was shutting a door that, simply, He did not want me to enter.  I could feel confident about that once the shift was taking place because I did have a serious type of bipolar disorder complete with psychotic state - that state did not include heavenly voices nor visions, nor was I ever aggressive in any way no matter the situation in which I found myself and sometimes they were extremely stressful in the extreme.  I was neither a risk to myself nor others......in or out of a well stocked kitchen with all necessary sharp implements. 

I do think however that if a person feels that they have a religious vocation then they should discern it very carefully and prayerfully, even if they do have some sort of mental problem - and discernment with direction if at all possible.  I think they should be free to discern as however discerning unfolds until they can feel comfortable reaching the point, if they do, that they are not called to RL.  The problem can be that directors with some understanding and training in mental health issues seem to be very far and few between for sure......here in South Australia anyway.

[Guest]

On ‎17‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 2:49 PM, Antigonos said:

I've noticed, over the years I've been here on this phorum, a number of discerners who admit to having struggles with depression.  Could it be related to the anxieties and/or frustration resulting from the deep desire to enter religious life, which often takes years to identify and the often the long period of discernment itself?  In which case, finding a compatible community and being accepted by it may actually reduce those factors leading to depression, as one gains a sense of fulfillment

I think that there might well be some truth in the above and I have reflected on my own journey as a result.  Undoubtedly, picking up on my own personal experience again, once I was living a lifestyle under private vows with many a misstep along the way, I began to feel an increasing sense of much Peace and Joy in the vocation and a deep sense of fulfilment and a belonging, call and vocation, despite a few adverse factors.  This was not an overnight event, it was a gradual happening.  Following that, the serious psychotic episodes of bipolar eventually ceased completely and now probably 12 years ago in the past.  Following that, I was granted a real place in my family of birth as they became more confident I was not going to be severely psychotic once more, which they had found impossible to handle (and rightly so).  At first on realising I had made private vows, they lapsed into suspicion once more until after a time, they realised I was still quite sane and 'normal'.  

Hence I do feel that the above comments by Antigonos might have very real value and that a sense of fulfilment etc. might well bring about healing in whatsoever the healing situation might be, and it could include religious life in certain cases.  Quite possibly some may have been turned away from religious life despite having an actual vocation to the life - and due I am convinced to widespread misunderstandings re mental illness in all the different garments it can wear and the potentials very possibly for healing situations as potential and as an understood possibility.  That is, of course, if there is such a thing as healing situations for certain types of mental illness.  Antigonos has raised a good question in my book. 

There is the problem too that discernment continues right up to final vows; whereas in actuality the moment a person enters postulancy in Catholic cultural consciousness generally still, they are said to have a religious vocation - sometimes too and prior to a person leaving to enter postulancy there are great celebrations by family and friends, the parish too, and to celebrate the 'religious vocation'.  It is said too that if a person leaves a community it is a disruptive situation to the community - I wonder if a community knowing it has postulants, novices and those in temporary vows in their midst should be prepared for someone to perhaps leave.  I do like that term "discerned out" as difficult as it is for the person and the community.  But to be expected as a potential on a discernment journey and where those still on that journey are in the community.