Simcha Fisher

[Guest]

Just now, hotpink said:

Seriously, chill bro.  There are athiests who are experts on Catholicism.  They may not practictice it, nor ever been a part of it, but they know it.

And if you knew Catholicism, you'd know there's also 2 other forms of Baptism other than Baptism by water, which are Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood.  All else failing, my participation in RCIA and bible studies, my participation in weekly Mass is in action.

Besides that, I have been baptized by water as an infant.  I do not have any records, the church closed, records were in a fire and the pastor has long since died.  I cannot sign the afadavid for myself because I don't know any details.  I have a family member who does, but this person refuses to because it would make a person they hate happy.  A priest has guided me to use my conscience as I cannot get a conditional Baptism, I know I was Baptized in a trinitine formula.  However, this particular church did some questionable things the decade before they were closed (long, long after my baptism) which gives a reasonable doubt I had a valid Baptism.  Except, mine was.  But I can't prove it.

Essentially you are saying that I have no validity to ANY opinion I have because I'm not "catholic enough" in your eyes, despite what priests and even bishops have told me.  However, anything that Simcha does, by merit of having 10 kids, is fine.  OOOOOOKKKKKK

 

From those details you sound Catholic as hell. Why wouldn't you be considered one?

[hotpink]

1 minute ago, Josh said:

From those details you sound Catholic as hell. Why wouldn't you be considered one?

So the long short of it is

-A- you're catholic if you are baptized at birth.  The Catholic Church records this at the parish and diocean level.  And requires not only God Parents but 2 additional witnesses.

-B-When you enter RCIA you can recieve Communion and Confirmation if you were baptized in a trinitine formula anywhere.  You get the pastor of the church or a witness to verify or use a chuch record, sign on the dotted line done deal.  Affidavid complete

-C-You enter RCIA but the records are incomplete, you do not know if it's Trinine formula.  So you get a conditional Baptism.

 

I'm stuck in limb between B and C.  I know for a fact that I did have a valid baptism but I was an infant so I cannot confirm it's the truth.  On the other hand, I have a witness who tells me it is so.  I am not elgible for a conditional Baptism, either, as that is for people who know they were Baptized but are not sure of the formula.  

The Bishop told me that I should be strong, and hopefully my desire will help these people to come to some peace.  I do not feel comfortable getting a conditional Baptism, nor will I ever.

[truthfinder]

1 hour ago, hotpink said:

So the long short of it is

-A- you're catholic if you are baptized at birth.  The Catholic Church records this at the parish and diocean level.  And requires not only God Parents but 2 additional witnesses.

-B-When you enter RCIA you can recieve Communion and Confirmation if you were baptized in a trinitine formula anywhere.  You get the pastor of the church or a witness to verify or use a chuch record, sign on the dotted line done deal.  Affidavid complete

-C-You enter RCIA but the records are incomplete, you do not know if it's Trinine formula.  So you get a conditional Baptism.

 

I'm stuck in limb between B and C.  I know for a fact that I did have a valid baptism but I was an infant so I cannot confirm it's the truth.  On the other hand, I have a witness who tells me it is so.  I am not elgible for a conditional Baptism, either, as that is for people who know they were Baptized but are not sure of the formula.  

The Bishop told me that I should be strong, and hopefully my desire will help these people to come to some peace.  I do not feel comfortable getting a conditional Baptism, nor will I ever.

Sorry for the circumstances that you've found yourself in.  Most places will accept the sworn testimony of a witness. And depending on the place, some dioceses will basically say that as long as it was in a 'normal' protestant church or others with known Trinitarian formulas , you're good. I hope you find peace and some resolution to your situation. 

[hotpink]

Just now, truthfinder said:

Sorry for the circumstances that you've found yourself in.  Most places will accept the sworn testimony of a witness. And depending on the place, some dioceses will basically say that as long as it was in a 'normal' protestant church or others with known Trinitarian formulas , you're good. I hope you find peace and some resolution to your situation. 

It's the witness part that's the problem.  I was 4 months old so I can't act as my own witness.  Family member who was allowed to baptize me and the minister were the only ones there.  My parents didn't attend as they are the "you'll find your own way" sort.  The relative who got permission did it quickly and to whomever would say yes.  So that person is my only witness.  Cause the minister is dead.  That minister died and the next minister at the church took it way off the deep end, so even though I was not baptized under that person the church got a really bad name.  Then it burned down.  Minister 2 may or may not have been involved.  It's messy.

So said relative believes they "won" and dosn't want me to be Catholic because that would mean other realitive who they hate and I've never met "won" me.  I have loads of relatives of all different religions who all seem to be in some sort of giant contest between me and my sibilings since my parents don't believe in raising a kid in any particular religion.

[Guest]

Just now, hotpink said:

It's the witness part that's the problem.  I was 4 months old so I can't act as my own witness.  Family member who was allowed to baptize me and the minister were the only ones there.  My parents didn't attend as they are the "you'll find your own way" sort.  The relative who got permission did it quickly and to whomever would say yes.  So that person is my only witness.  Cause the minister is dead.  That minister died and the next minister at the church took it way off the deep end, so even though I was not baptized under that person the church got a really bad name.  Then it burned down.  Minister 2 may or may not have been involved.  It's messy.

So said relative believes they "won" and dosn't want me to be Catholic because that would mean other realitive who they hate and I've never met "won" me.  I have loads of relatives of all different religions who all seem to be in some sort of giant contest between me and my sibilings since my parents don't believe in raising a kid in any particular religion.

I'm still confused. So the Catholic Church doesn't consider you Catholic? 

[hotpink]

4 minutes ago, Josh said:

I'm still confused. So the Catholic Church doesn't consider you Catholic? 

Sort of?  Catecumins are unbaptized so I'm not a catechuman either way.  But I can't recieve communion or confirmation until my baptism is cleared up.  I don't even think I can get married in the catholic Church.  Which would totally stink.

[Guest]

Just now, hotpink said:

Sort of?  Catecumins are unbaptized so I'm not a catechuman either way.  But I can't recieve communion or confirmation until my baptism is cleared up.  I don't even think I can get married in the catholic Church.  Which would totally stink.

So why dont you do whatever you have to? Is the Church making it complicated for you? Jesus said his burden is light. To eat his flesh and drink his blood. A bunch of rules and loopholes shouldn't prevent you from being able to do that ASAP.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Guest

[hotpink]

2 minutes ago, Josh said:

So why dont you do whatever you have to? Is the Church making it complicated for you? Jesus said his burden is light. To eat his flesh and drink his blood. A bunch of rules and loopholes shouldn't prevent you from being able to do that ASAP.

Would you like to come and talk to the bishop next time I go chat with him?  Cause I'm sure your super persuasive ways would change his mind on thousands of years of doctrine..  The church has real rules.  They want a witness.  I could choose to lie and get a conditional baptism, but I know that I was baptized in a trinitarian formula.  My witness is non-cooperative.  IT's that person who's sinning, not me.  

[Guest]

Just now, hotpink said:

Would you like to come and talk to the bishop next time I go chat with him?  Cause I'm sure your super persuasive ways would change his mind on thousands of years of doctrine..  The church has real rules.  They want a witness.  I could choose to lie and get a conditional baptism, but I know that I was baptized in a trinitarian formula.  My witness is non-cooperative.  IT's that person who's sinning, not me.  

I wonder what Pope Francis would have to say about this. Rules and loopholes shouldn't stop you from receiving the Eucharist through no fault of your own.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Guest

[hotpink]

50 minutes ago, Josh said:

I wonder what Pope Francis would have to say about this. Rules and loopholes shouldn't stop you from receiving the Eucharist through no fault of your own.

Even if I was blessed enough to get an audience with him, he couldn't just change the rules of a 2000 year old church for me.  He might go visit my relative an tell them to stop being a singsong but he is still a servant to the church in the end.

[Maggyie]

55 minutes ago, hotpink said:

Would you like to come and talk to the bishop next time I go chat with him?  Cause I'm sure your super persuasive ways would change his mind on thousands of years of doctrine..  The church has real rules.  They want a witness.  I could choose to lie and get a conditional baptism, but I know that I was baptized in a trinitarian formula.  My witness is non-cooperative.  IT's that person who's sinning, not me.  

Can you REALLY be sure that you were though? You are relying on the word of this relative who seems quite mentally ill. They might even lie in an attempt to throw gum in the works and keep you out of the church. 

[Guest]

Is it the particular Church you're going to that is giving you these issues?  Or all Catholic Churches? Like Truthfinder said Protestant Baptisms are valid. Does your Church believe this? If there's such doubt about your Baptism why not get Baptized again? Are you just going to go your whole life in this state and never receive the Eucharist? 

Edited August 27, 2016 by Guest

[hotpink]

1 minute ago, Maggyie said:

Can you REALLY be sure that you were though? You are relying on the word of this relative who seems quite mentally ill. They might even lie in an attempt to throw gum in the works and keep you out of the church. 

My cousin was baptized by the same minister about 2 weeks before me an his parents attended and have a recording...as do a few others I contacted.  there is no reason the minister would of done a different baptism for me. I was taken to be baptized an certainly was...but my parents didn't much care, so they didn't attend. My mom remembers the day I went as she waited outside, so unless the minister played peek a boo for 10 minutes, I was baptized.

6 minutes ago, Josh said:

Is it the particular Church you're going to that is giving you these issues?  Or all Catholic Churches? Like Truthfinder said Protestant Baptisms are valid. Does your Church believe this? If there's such doubt about your Baptism why not get Baptized again? Are you just going to go your whole life in this state and never receive the Eucharist? 

Well I've spoken to the bishops.  The validity is in question to the church but no by me.  I refuse a condional baptism when I'm sure mine was valid.  The bishop agreed.

[Basilisa Marie]

Whatever your stance on her firing, I've been fairly impressed with the way she's handled it.  It's everyone else that's making a huge stink about it. Mark Shea keeps white knighting her though.  I hadn't read anything of his in years and wow has he gotten weird. 

I really enjoy reading Simcha's personal blog. But for someone with such a following I always found it slightly odd that she'd use Facebook like regular people and not like someone with the world watching her. Seems like I take more care with mine as a church employee than she does as someone who is semi famous in Catholic Land. But that's what happens and she's not crying over it in public because newsflash, she has a big enough personal following to stand on her own.  Which again,  is why Shea's defense of her rubbed me the wrong way. 

[hotpink]

17 minutes ago, Basilisa Marie said:

Whatever your stance on her firing, I've been fairly impressed with the way she's handled it.  It's everyone else that's making a huge stink about it. Mark Shea keeps white knighting her though.  I hadn't read anything of his in years and wow has he gotten weird. 

I really enjoy reading Simcha's personal blog. But for someone with such a following I always found it slightly odd that she'd use Facebook like regular people and not like someone with the world watching her. Seems like I take more care with mine as a church employee than she does as someone who is semi famous in Catholic Land. But that's what happens and she's not crying over it in public because newsflash, she has a big enough personal following to stand on her own.  Which again,  is why Shea's defense of her rubbed me the wrong way. 

Shouldn't she have a "personality" facebook as opposed to a personal one?  Public personality or not, I wouldn't post crude stuff on my facebook because of my cousins and those who are much younger (or older).  Given that it appears her children are facebook friends with her, I find myself even more disgusted.

Which, perhaps she finds herself vindicated, and perhaps she and her children speak that way at home.  Which is rather sad, if you think about it.

It is true she's handling it well.  And I don't thnk she should be hated.  But i do think it's probably good a "face of catholocism" news outlet isn't taking her writing for the time being.

[Maggyie]

15 hours ago, hotpink said:

My cousin was baptized by the same minister about 2 weeks before me an his parents attended and have a recording...as do a few others I contacted.  there is no reason the minister would of done a different baptism for me. I was taken to be baptized an certainly was...but my parents didn't much care, so they didn't attend. My mom remembers the day I went as she waited outside, so unless the minister played peek a boo for 10 minutes, I was baptized.

Well I've spoken to the bishops.  The validity is in question to the church but no by me.  I refuse a condional baptism when I'm sure mine was valid.  The bishop agreed.

But again, you don't KNOW if he played peek a boo for 10 minutes. All you know for sure is what your crazy relative told you and your family. Is it likely you were baptized? Sure. But you don't know. Nobody with any credibility was there. And there's no record because of a fire? And the minister who did it is dead? And the church went wacky later on? Personally I would jump at the chance for a conditional baptism...

4 hours ago, Basilisa Marie said:

Whatever your stance on her firing, I've been fairly impressed with the way she's handled it.  It's everyone else that's making a huge stink about it. Mark Shea keeps white knighting her though.  I hadn't read anything of his in years and wow has he gotten weird. 

I really enjoy reading Simcha's personal blog. But for someone with such a following I always found it slightly odd that she'd use Facebook like regular people and not like someone with the world watching her. Seems like I take more care with mine as a church employee than she does as someone who is semi famous in Catholic Land. But that's what happens and she's not crying over it in public because newsflash, she has a big enough personal following to stand on her own.  Which again,  is why Shea's defense of her rubbed me the wrong way. 

Yeah what's with Mark Shea anyway? Total goober. Social media is not for him.

[hotpink]

1 minute ago, Maggyie said:

But again, you don't KNOW if he played peek a boo for 10 minutes. All you know for sure is what your crazy relative told you and your family. Is it likely you were baptized? Sure. But you don't know. Nobody with any credibility was there. And there's no record because of a fire? And the minister who did it is dead? And the church went wacky later on? Personally I would jump at the chance for a conditional baptism...

This relative IS reliable, not crazy.  Yes, this person has an unreasonable hate in this stupid relgion contest, but as you can see here really intelligent people get really stupid when it comes to religion.  Quite honestly, you're acting really assumptious here.    Calling someone you do not know, who is simply holding a really mean grudge "mentally ill" is a stretch. I do happen to know my life better than you do.  Minister who did it has passed away.  The minister who took over was bat-hat crazy and gave the church a bad name.  He drove it into the ground and it burned down.

[Sponsa-Christi]

Unsolicited advice here, but @hotpink, I would accept a conditional baptism if I were you. Honestly, I can see where the Church authorities are coming from. In a situation where there are no records and no witnesses willing to actually bear witness, you have to appreciate how it would be hard for an outside third party to come to the same degree of certainty that you have. 

I can understand where you are coming from in terms of standing by your belief that you have already been baptized. But is standing on principle really worth not coming into full communion with the Church and not being able to receive the other sacraments? Even if you are morally certain that you were baptized, you might looks at accepting a conditional baptism as a praiseworthy exercise of the virtue of obedience to legitimate authority.  

And, a conditional baptism isn't exactly the same thing as a regular baptism for someone who is known to be unbaptized. The "conditional" part is an acknowledgement that there is a good chance that a valid baptism already occurred.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Basilisa Marie said:

wow has he gotten weird. 

 

Weird >"Normal"

[Archaeology cat]

22 hours ago, Sponsa-Christi said:

Unsolicited advice here, but @hotpink, I would accept a conditional baptism if I were you. Honestly, I can see where the Church authorities are coming from. In a situation where there are no records and no witnesses willing to actually bear witness, you have to appreciate how it would be hard for an outside third party to come to the same degree of certainty that you have. 

I can understand where you are coming from in terms of standing by your belief that you have already been baptized. But is standing on principle really worth not coming into full communion with the Church and not being able to receive the other sacraments? Even if you are morally certain that you were baptized, you might looks at accepting a conditional baptism as a praiseworthy exercise of the virtue of obedience to legitimate authority.  

And, a conditional baptism isn't exactly the same thing as a regular baptism for someone who is known to be unbaptized. The "conditional" part is an acknowledgement that there is a good chance that a valid baptism already occurred.

This. The conditional baptism is because the Church cannot be absolutely certain it happened. If there were a trial to determine whether you'd been baptised or not, a judge wouldn't have enough evidence to declare that you were. Had I not been able o find my baptismal certificate,  or had the small Baptist church refused to give it, I would've had a conditional baptism, even though I knew I'd been baptised.