Habit but no veil

[DominiCanis]

Lately I am noticing sisters of all kinds of orders who wear a habit, but no veil.

Norbertine sisters of Mariëngaerd, Hierden, The Netherlands:

Dominican sister of Neerbosch, Nijmegen, The Netherlands:

Poor Clare, Nijmegen, The Netherlands:

 

My personal view is that it is good for sisters to wear the habit, for obvious reasons. But since when is it ´allowed´ to simply skip the veil?

[Jack4]

I don't know for sure but I guess that each order has its own rules.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

2 hours ago, DominiCanis said:

Lately I am noticing sisters of all kinds of orders who wear a habit, but no veil.

Norbertine sisters of Mariëngaerd, Hierden, The Netherlands:

Dominican sister of Neerbosch, Nijmegen, The Netherlands:

Poor Clare, Nijmegen, The Netherlands:

 

My personal view is that it is good for sisters to wear the habit, for obvious reasons. But since when is it ´allowed´ to simply skip the veil?

Some Orders wear a habit only during services and wear more secular clothes the rest of the time. This is actually quite common and allowed by the Vatican. There are Orders in the U.S., as well., that folllow this practice. Most, but not all, of the posters on VS prefer a habited Order. However, this is a preference, and not a mandate from the Church.

Members of non-habited Orders that are recognized by the Church make the same vows as habited Orders.

Note: This can be a controversial subject in VS, so I will stop here. Personally, I respect all consecrated women, habited or not.

 

[Swami Mommy]

I'm very practical.  All symbolism aside, I personally would opt for a veil because I have baby fine hair and it takes me a good twenty minutes of fussing with a curler and lots of hairspray to give my hair body, to make my hairstyle look presentable!  LOL!

[DameAgnes]

Egad, some of those women look grim.

It looks to me like they've simply chosen to wear monks/friars habits, with hoods, rather than deal with the veil. I believe there are some OSB's in the USA who also do this, and I know a few OSB's who have taken on the monk habit but with a modified veil instead of a hood. 

It's "fine"...but most of them do look a bit masculine in these pictures. Why not embrace what is feminine? I've never understood the sort of thinking that goes, "if we do it like men, then we're succeeding as women..." It ironically gives the male way credence as the "best" way...hardly what I'd call feminism. 

Honestly, I couldn't care less whether a sister/nun is veiled or not, but what Swami Mommy says is true, hair dressing matters in the world. The horrible haircuts, undressed and unstyled may seem more "equal" to men, but it doesn't really work for women. That Poor Clare in the brown might be the nicest, holiest person in the world, but she looks so tough. And yes, looks actually do matter. If ppl think you're unapproachable, then what? 

I don't remember where I heard it or read it but the line, "now you must learn hairdressing? Funny sorts of nuns..."  

It's a conundrum. I "get" why they prefer not to veil. But I wish they'd either learn to use a blowdryer and mousse (which impacts poverty) or just put on a kerchief and get on with it. :-)

[NadaTeTurbe]

17 minutes ago, DameAgnes said:

Honestly, I couldn't care less whether a sister/nun is veiled or not, but what Swami Mommy says is true, hair dressing matters in the world. The horrible haircuts, undressed and unstyled may seem more "equal" to men, but it doesn't really work for women. That Poor Clare in the brown might be the nicest, holiest person in the world, but she looks so tough. And yes, looks actually do matter. If ppl think you're unapproachable, then what? 
 

A lot of people think that veiled/Habited nuns are unapproachable, I have dozens of anecdote about it - in fact, many people don't know what a religious habit is. 

And judging women on appearance is not christian. Since when short hair like these are masculine ? Many many old women have this kind of haircut in my parish. . 

The community of Our Lady of Walshingam does that too. 

[Josefa]

Dame  Agnes  ,  you  are  right  

[EmilyAnn]

45 minutes ago, DameAgnes said:

Egad, some of those women look grim.

It looks to me like they've simply chosen to wear monks/friars habits, with hoods, rather than deal with the veil. I believe there are some OSB's in the USA who also do this, and I know a few OSB's who have taken on the monk habit but with a modified veil instead of a hood. 

It's "fine"...but most of them do look a bit masculine in these pictures. Why not embrace what is feminine? I've never understood the sort of thinking that goes, "if we do it like men, then we're succeeding as women..." It ironically gives the male way credence as the "best" way...hardly what I'd call feminism. 

Honestly, I couldn't care less whether a sister/nun is veiled or not, but what Swami Mommy says is true, hair dressing matters in the world. The horrible haircuts, undressed and unstyled may seem more "equal" to men, but it doesn't really work for women. That Poor Clare in the brown might be the nicest, holiest person in the world, but she looks so tough. And yes, looks actually do matter. If ppl think you're unapproachable, then what? 

I don't remember where I heard it or read it but the line, "now you must learn hairdressing? Funny sorts of nuns..."  

It's a conundrum. I "get" why they prefer not to veil. But I wish they'd either learn to use a blowdryer and mousse (which impacts poverty) or just put on a kerchief and get on with it. :-)

The first photo at least looks older - styles change. Ever looked at pictures from the early 00s? They look abysmal now, but at the time that was what was considered attractive.

You're making an awful lot of negative assumptions based on hair. Why does short hair make one 'masculine' - they are dressed as any other sisters only without a veil. As NadaTeTurbe said, most older women I know wear their hair short.

You could be a little more charitable.

[dominicansoul]

My first thought was how much they look like their male counterparts, only because they are wearing what a male religious wears, which is basically a habit and no veil. 

[Egeria]

3 hours ago, Swami Mommy said:

I'm very practical.  All symbolism aside, I personally would opt for a veil because I have baby fine hair and it takes me a good twenty minutes of fussing with a curler and lots of hairspray to give my hair body, to make my hairstyle look presentable!  LOL!

I used to think this too until I actually wore one. While this would be true of more traditional veils with wimples etc., or with more abbreviated ones worn very far forward, if you have the wrong type of hair and head combination the modern abbreviated ones can be a nightmare to keep on your head. And then often communities do want you to show some hair because, you know, nuns must look attractive and there one gets into the whole spiral again... I have heard several monastic sisters saying that when they got rid of the wimple it would have made more sense to get rid of the veil entirely. I could say more, but, frankly, I don't think it's anyone's business other than the communities concerned.

[Thijs]

I grew up in Netherlands and I would like to out my observation here not to start a debate but to inform. After the upheaval of religious orders getting rid of the veil is actually a sign of women religious orders to being gender neutral and inclusive. As their are Lutheran clergy that don their clericals you may have mistaken the sisters as Protestant ministers. For this reason it is sad, you are throwing away years of identity. Good news though the Franciscan Sisters of the Martyr St George is getting vocation.

 

As for the Community of Our Lady of Walsingham they envision themselves as a mixed community hence an identical habit. But their sisters look feminine, sorry, compare to the Dutch ones.Apologies, my opinion.

Let's just pray for their fidelity 

[Spem in alium]

There is a Franciscan community here which does not wear a veil but which have retained the habit, but I don't know a lot about them. A similar thing is seen with the Missionaries of God's Love, though they are still in the process of having their constitutions approved so are not officially a congregation.

There could be many reasons for them not wearing the veil. It's not to us to judge them. Frankly, it makes me sad seeing so much criticism of sisters and their appearance (especially those not wearing a veil or not wearing a habit at all). Appearance and dress are both important, but they don't make the person. Some of the greatest sisters I know (including my spiritual director) don't wear any identifiable garb beyond a pin. If I were to dismiss them based on what they wear, I would have missed out on a tremendous experience of friendship and God's grace.

[DameAgnes]

5 hours ago, NadaTeTurbe said:

A lot of people think that veiled/Habited nuns are unapproachable, I have dozens of anecdote about it - in fact, many people don't know what a religious habit is. 

And judging women on appearance is not christian. Since when short hair like these are masculine ? Many many old women have this kind of haircut in my parish. . 

The community of Our Lady of Walshingam does that too. 

"I" have that kind of haircut, but with a blowdryer and a brush it manages to look feminine, not masculine, even without the extra cost of mousse. Judging ANYONE by appearance is not Christian but I'm not doing that. I'm not judging anyone. I'm saying it's not a good look. Overall, for anyone, a crappy haircut is not a good look. The women in the Walshingham community do have short hair, but they look a whole lot better, b/c the haircuts are better. I've seen pics of unhabited sisters working difficult missions in Africa and India who manage to look joyful and feminine, even with the short hair. 

5 hours ago, EmilyAnn said:

 

You could be a little more charitable.

It's not about being "Charitable" -- It's about the look. Look at the third woman in that top photo, who is sporting the haircut of a businessman circa 1950. Come on. Grim. Calling it as I see it. You don't have to agree.

4 hours ago, Egeria said:

 I don't think it's anyone's business other than the communities concerned.

Truth. I know women who wear veils and say they're hot. Others are very comfortable in them. I know women whose communities got rid of the veils and wish they'd bring them back b/c they're sick of how their hair looks and having no time or skill at hairdressing. Every community is free to do what they wish, and God bless them all, for it. I happen to really dislike the veils of the Franciscan Sisters of the Eucharist (pillbox hat with veil; you can see pretty much the whole head, although the hair usually looks good) and the Sisters of Mercy of Alma (half a head of hair expose and the veil sits on the back of the head) but that's what they like. All I'm saying is if you're going to use male robes -- and I have no problem with that either; they're kind of cool looking -- that doesn't mean you have to look like a guy.

Edited September 16, 2016 by DameAgnes

[Pax17]

Dame Agnes, the reference to hairdressing is from Rumer Godden's "In This House of Brede."  Talking about changes being made to religious life, one of the younger nuns says,"We could learn hairdressing."  A guest responds, "You haven't time to say your Office, yet you have time to wave and set your hair.  qwerty kind of nuns!"

 

[Makarioi]

I know it's shallow of me but I love veils! 

[Antigonos]

Statistically, apparently it is quite ordinary for women to want to keep their hair shorter as they get older.  "Putting one's hair up" for the first time used to be a declaration, in Victorian times, of the transition from child to young woman.

In some old photographs of nuns, the headgear looks so extreme it must have been a real penance.  I confess I like many of the older sorts of habits, because they look graceful, and even the sort of hooded "monks' robes", but I wouldn't ever judge one's religious committment on the basis of presence or absence of one.  I do wonder if those orders which have done away with the habit have to allow more time for the sisters to get dressed and groomed, however.  Even with a simple wardrobe, having choice does mean paying attention to certain aspects of one's appearance more.

[Hemma]

As far as I know them, many sisters who don't wear a veil do this for emancipatory reasons.

However there's at least one exception: http://www.cisztercimonostor.hu/indexc.php?id=home_de  Once I heard from some (veiled) Austrian Cistercians why these wear no veils. These Cistercian Nuns from Hungaria had to endure a lot of persecution through the communists. There was something with the veils during that persecutions. Today they don't wear veils because some of the older sisters would get reminded of the persecution time by the veils. Something like that. Maybe they will wear veils once the older sisters have passed away.

[nikita92]

I think veils are a part of the (full) habit! There is a meaning behind doing so!

I was first exposed" to "sisters" in the 1960's as a young girl! That is what impressed on my mind from the get go! 

Now as a mature middle aged woman...wearing "veils" is what I identify women religious having; and what I am attracted to! Take two women of the same age...one is in a "full"habit and the other is in some sort of polyester skirt/blouse..pantsuit (sporting a shortest haircut) and turn them around and look at them ONLY from the back! Take two men and ask them to identify which one they THINK is a woman religious! Which one do you think they would choose first??!

Take the skirted/blouse one and have her put on a very short veil...try it again...which do you think the men would select? Most likely BOTH of them!

Also...I deal with thousands of cruise ship passengers from all over the world!  Female lesbian couples usually have one partner that has the "manly" haircut more often than not! 

Just voicing my Prerogative!

I apologize in advance if I have upset or insulted anyone!

[Spem in alium]

 

21 minutes ago, nikita92 said:

I think veils are a part of the (full) habit! There is a meaning behind doing so!

I was first exposed" to "sisters" in the 1960's as a young girl! That is what impressed on my mind from the get go! 

Now as a mature middle aged woman...wearing "veils" is what I identify women religious having; and what I am attracted to! Take two women of the same age...one is in a "full"habit and the other is in some sort of polyester skirt/blouse..pantsuit (sporting a shortest haircut) and turn them around and look at them ONLY from the back! Take two men and ask them to identify which one they THINK is a woman religious! Which one do you think they would choose first??!

Take the skirted/blouse one and have her put on a very short veil...try it again...which do you think the men would select? Most likely BOTH of them!

Also...I deal with thousands of cruise ship passengers from all over the world!  Female lesbian couples usually have one partner that has the "manly" haircut more often than not! 

Just voicing my Prerogative!

I apologize in advance if I have upset or insulted anyone!

There is certainly a meaning in the veil. And of course people identify religious by their habits, because this is the traditional outward sign: the same way as a policeman would be identified by his uniform, or a Muslim woman if she wore the hijab or niqab. What is important to remember and stress is that the outward appearance does not make the whole person. I entered a congregation which does wear a habit or a skirt and blouse with/without veil (but which gives sisters choice, at least in my country) and I have had people commending me on choosing a congregation which has retained the habit (actually, some people told me to choose these sisters *because* they wear a habit). Yes, the dress is important and was something I did certainly consider, but it's not the main thing (and doesn't even factor as one of my top five reasons why I applied to enter these sisters).

What's more important is the faithfulness of the sisters to God, to their charism, and to one another. The religious in full habit might look more appealing, but she may in fact not be living as well as the sister in the skirt and blouse or pantsuit. I do not wear a veil yet, only a shirt and a skirt, and still most people do recognise me as a sister mostly because of the work I do and the people I am with. If people want to judge or make an assumption that a woman is not a true religious because she doesn't wear a veil, that's up to them, but they don't know what's going on in her heart -- that could, in fact, be more beautiful than any veil.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Spem in alium

[sr.christinaosf]

I'll just through this out there: 

https://ourfranciscanfiat.wordpress.com/2016/06/07/keeping-god-on-the-streets/