For those who defend Trump

[Luigi]

1 hour ago, Peace said:

Sure, but if you fan the flames should you be surprised when the fire spreads? It ain't like Trump is some babe in the woods who has no idea how people perceive his words. Trump says "I would like to punch that protester in the face. In the good old days someone would have carried him out on a stretcher." At a subsequent rally a Trump supporter punches a protester in the face.You can't then sit there and then say "Oh I can't be held responsible the actions of my supporters. I had nothing to do with that." 

Neither Clinton nor Sanders talked about punching protestors in the face, yet a number of their supporters punched protestors in the face. And rioted in Portland, and Oakland, and I don't know where all else. 

Neither Clinton nor Sanders, nor Trump, can be held responsible for what certain of their supporters do.

[Peace]

38 minutes ago, Luigi said:

Neither Clinton nor Sanders, nor Trump, can be held responsible for what certain of their supporters do.

OK. But only because you say so.

[Anomaly]

37 minutes ago, Peace said:

OK. But only because you say so.

Lol.  How charitable and forgiving of you. 

[Guest]

20 hours ago, Norseman82 said:

 

For a second I thought Tab was back......

Why's that? Does he post meme's or something? 

[Amppax]

On 11/26/2016 at 2:32 PM, Luigi said:

Neither Clinton nor Sanders talked about punching protestors in the face, yet a number of their supporters punched protestors in the face. And rioted in Portland, and Oakland, and I don't know where all else. 

Neither Clinton nor Sanders, nor Trump, can be held responsible for what certain of their supporters do.

Do you not see the obvious difference? Trump talked about it, people did it. Trump can certainly be held to account when people are doing things which he called for them to do.

[Luigi]

5 hours ago, Amppax said:

Do you not see the obvious difference? Trump talked about it, people did it. Trump can certainly be held to account when people are doing things which he called for them to do.

Do you see the similarity? Irresponsible people of any stripe are going to do stupid things in the name of their candidate, or their cause, or their ideals, or whatever. Trump looked straight into the camera on "Sixty Minutes" and said directly - "Stop it!" But irresponsible people will continue to do irresponsible things. And when they do, they should be arrested and prosecuted, no matter in whose name they claim to be doing it.

[Peace]

14 hours ago, Luigi said:

Do you see the similarity? Irresponsible people of any stripe are going to do stupid things in the name of their candidate, or their cause, or their ideals, or whatever. Trump looked straight into the camera on "Sixty Minutes" and said directly - "Stop it!" But irresponsible people will continue to do irresponsible things. And when they do, they should be arrested and prosecuted, no matter in whose name they claim to be doing it.

But if Trump had looked directly into the camera and said "carry on" or "boys will be boys" would he bear any responsibility for their actions? 

Your answer would seem to be "no" because "bad people will always do bad things anyway." 

But if that is the case, wouldn't the conclusion be that all words are meaningless? 

If I created a thread on this website or wrote a public article that said "A woman has a right to choose what to do with her own body, and has a right to choose for herself whether to have an abortion" wouldn't you and @dominicansoul accuse me of contributing to the number of abortions? 

Could I respond by saying "Oh I am not responsible for those words because women would have abortions even if I never wrote them?" 

If you would not give me a free pass for writing those words then I do not see why Trump or anyone else should get a free pass for their words.

Why do you think that they should?

[dominicansoul]

I do believe Trump is responsible to a degree, just as all the liberals and the Obama administration are for their ill-willed propaganda against the police force which has resulted in the murder of so many cops.  

The San Antonio Police force buried another one today...

Politicians are very good at making humans into disposable non-humans...

 

Keep praying for politicians and their conversion.  

[Quasar]

10 hours ago, dominicansoul said:

I do believe Trump is responsible to a degree, just as all the liberals and the Obama administration are for their ill-willed propaganda against the police force which has resulted in the murder of so many cops.  

The San Antonio Police force buried another one today...

Absolutely.  Trump is probably to blame for some protesters getting punched, but Obama and Hillary incited the murders of many men and women in blue.  Obama and Hillary have blood on their hands.

So sad about the SAPD officer.  

[Peace]

9 hours ago, Quasar said:

Absolutely.  Trump is probably to blame for some protesters getting punched, but Obama and Hillary incited the murders of many men and women in blue.  Obama and Hillary have blood on their hands.

So sad about the SAPD officer.  

I am going to have to call BS on that one. Obama speaks very highly of law enforcement. I can pull up numerous videos or quotes where he talks about how honorable and worthy of respect police are. He has never said anything along the lines of "I hope that people are violent towards the police" or "police should not be respected." 

Please show me the specific statements that Obama has made that would suggest to a sane person that he should murder or commit violence against a police officer. Otherwise, BS.

Obama has criticized racial bias and other problems within the criminal justice system, and many of those criticisms are perfectly legitimate. He has never said "I would like to punch a police officer in the face."

[Socrates]

On 11/25/2016 at 11:43 PM, Peace said:

I meant that they are the same in principle, not degree. 

I woud say that the Republican resistance to public health insurance is in the direction of allowing people to freeze. 

Sorry, but that's a steaming load of utter and complete horse manure.

While no one's claiming that everything was perfect, there was no epidemic of people being allowed to freeze to death in the years prior to the ironically-titled "affordable care act," which is actually making healthcare much less affordable for the bulk of people.  Nor is Obamacare's implementation actually saving people from freezing or death from neglect.

At the very least, if you were honest, you'd have to admit that there is a very legitimate and serious debate over the economics and effects of socialized medicine, rather than it simply being the result of a bunch of Evil Greedy Conservatives wanting to let the poor die in the streets.

To equivocate opposition to socialized medicine at all with the direct support of deliberately killing unborn babies is obscenely dishonest and/or idiotic.

 

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As for racism, you can read the Wikipedia article "Southern Strategy" to start.

If racism is indeed such a huge part of modern conservatism or the GOP, then it shouldn't be so hard to find some real, actual concrete racist policy they implemented or endorsed.  Or perhaps you can give real concrete examples of how persons of color are so much better off under Obama or the Democrats. (I'm talking real, actual policies, with real effects on people, not "dog whistle" bullcr@p.  And no, supporting stronger borders and immigration policy is not racist. https://www.conservativereview.com/commentary/2016/11/pissed-off-dad-of-jamiel-shaw-jr-explains-how-liberal-immigration-lies-harm-black-americans.)

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That's all the time I have for you today.

Peace

That's very generous of you.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Socrates
formatting

[Peace]

12 minutes ago, Socrates said:

Sorry, but that's a steaming load of utter and complete horse manure.

While no one's claiming that everything was perfect, there was no epidemic of people being allowed to freeze to death in the years prior to the ironically-titled "affordable care act," which is actually making healthcare much less affordable for the bulk of people.  Nor is Obamacare's implementation actually saving people from freezing or death from neglect.

At the very least, if you were honest, you'd have to admit that there is a very legitimate and serious debate over the economics and effects of socialized medicine, rather than it simply being the result of a bunch of Evil Greedy Conservatives wanting to let the poor die in the streets.

To equivocate opposition to socialized medicine at all with the direct support of deliberately killing unborn babies is obscenely dishonest and/or idiotic.

I honestly didn't think you were so obtuse  as to read "freezing to death" literally. I will try to keep that in mind when conversing with you in the future.

Quote

 

If racism is indeed such a huge part of modern conservatism or the GOP, then it shouldn't be so hard to find some real, actual concrete racist policy they implemented or endorsed.  Or perhaps you can give real concrete examples of how persons of color are so much better off under Obama or the Democrats. (I'm talking real, actual policies, with real effects on people, not "dog whistle" bullcr@p.  And no, supporting stronger borders and immigration policy is not racist. https://www.conservativereview.com/commentary/2016/11/pissed-off-dad-of-jamiel-shaw-jr-explains-how-liberal-immigration-lies-harm-black-americans.)

Here ya go. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/08/03/courts-are-finally-pointing-out-the-racism-behind-voter-id-laws/?0p19G=c

Edited November 30, 2016 by Peace

[Peace]

I should really start charging you a fee.

[Socrates]

22 minutes ago, Peace said:

I honestly didn't think you were so obtuse  as to read "freezing to death" literally. I will try to keep that in mind when conversing with you in the future.

But I did mean "deliberately killing unborn babies" very literally.  Because that's what abortion is, literally.  Again, there's no comparison. 

Quote

Here ya go. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/08/03/courts-are-finally-pointing-out-the-racism-behind-voter-id-laws/?0p19G=c

 

Oh please.  Voter ID laws are racist?  Jim Crow?

Please.  Give.  Me.  A.  Flooping.  Break.

Please tell me you're joking.  But the Washington Compost has spoken.  Makers of the world's most expensive toilet paper.

 

So how exactly are laws requiring all voters (regardless of race) to display ID racist, or preventing blacks from voting?  Cause this here dumb white boy can't connect the dots.  If I recall, North Carolina actually issued the ID cards for free, at state expense, so you can't really use the "poll tax" argument, weak as it was.  Was there any actual evidence that blacks or other racial minorities were being denied IDs?  

Having a photo ID is required to drive a motor vehicle, buy a case of beer, or pack of cigarettes, as well as do countless more serious things.  Yet you don't hear much whining from the bleeding hearts about driver's licenses or carding for booze being racist.

And if you're really insinuating that minorities are somehow mentally incapable of obtaining IDs, that, my good sir, I find offensive and racist.

The obvious point of voter ID (for those not smoking illicit substances, or otherwise inclined to believe ridiculous conspiracy theories) is that they make it harder for a person to commit voter fraud by claiming to be someone he or she is not and voting under another person's.  It helps prevent things like non-citizens and dead persons voting (though I realize that's discriminatory, as both these groups lean heavily Democrat.)  I could care less what sinister motives leftist idiots (sorry, that was a redundant phrase) writing op-eds at the Compost, or leftist courts assign.  The left has an interest in making voting fraud easy.

24 minutes ago, Peace said:

I should really start charging you a fee.

For what?  Common sense?

[Peace]

11 minutes ago, Socrates said:

Please tell me you're joking.  But the Washington Compost has spoken.  Makers of the world's most expensive toilet paper.

@Jack4 would that be ad hominem or genetic fallacy?

Socrates, I suppose that the courts that threw these laws out as discriminatory are packed with "liberal justices"? 

You amuse me. Please keep up the good work.

Quote

So how exactly are laws requiring all voters (regardless of race) to display ID racist, or preventing blacks from voting?  Cause this here dumb white boy can't connect the dots.  If I recall, North Carolina actually issued the ID cards for free, at state expense, so you can't really use the "poll tax" argument, weak as it was.  Was there any actual evidence that blacks or other racial minorities were being denied IDs?  

Having a photo ID is required to drive a motor vehicle, buy a case of beer, or pack of cigarettes, as well as do countless more serious things.  Yet you don't hear much whining from the bleeding hearts about driver's licenses or carding for booze being racist.

And if you're really insinuating that minorities are somehow mentally incapable of obtaining IDs, that, my good sir, I find offensive and racist.

The obvious point of voter ID (for those not smoking illicit substances, or otherwise inclined to believe ridiculous conspiracy theories) is that they make it harder for a person to commit voter fraud by claiming to be someone he or she is not and voting under another person's.  It helps prevent things like non-citizens and dead persons voting (though I realize that's discriminatory, as both these groups lean heavily Democrat.)  I could care less what sinister motives leftist idiots (sorry, that was a redundant phrase) writing op-eds at the Compost, or leftist courts assign.  The left has an interest in making voting fraud easy.

It may benefit you to read or think before writing. That would save both of us time.

If you conduct a study to discern racial voting patterns and then enact laws with the aim of reducing voting turnout among specific ethic groups, that would be racism.

Are you really so naive to believe that the GOP are pushing these laws out of fairness to all rather than for their own political advantage?

Quote

For what?  Common sense?

Precisely.

[Socrates]

1 hour ago, Peace said:

@Jack4 would that be ad hominem or genetic fallacy?

Socrates, I suppose that the courts that threw these laws out as discriminatory are packed with "liberal justices"? 

Highly probable.  Certainly not unbiased, or sane.

Quote

You amuse me. Please keep up the good work.

Thanks.  I will.

Quote

 

It may benefit you to read or think before writing. That would save both of us time.

 

Or maybe you should think before linking to incredibly stupid op-eds to try to make your case.

 

Quote

If you conduct a study to discern racial voting patterns and then enact laws with the aim of reducing voting turnout among specific ethic groups, that would be racism.

So how exactly do laws requiring all voters to bring ID to prove they are who they claim to be prevent blacks from voting?

??? . . .

Please spell it out for me, 'cause I'm obtuse, remember.

Were blacks being turned down IDs?  Are driver's licenses with photos racist?

 

 

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Are you really so naive to believe that the GOP are pushing these laws out of fairness to all rather than for their own political advantage?

Unless I'm missing something, these laws required exactly the same of white voters as black voters (or voters of any race), and didn't treat anyone differently.

But are you really so naive as to think that every judge is a purely fair and unbiased purveyor of justice, interested in nothing but upholding the law?  Or that those who write for the WP are nothing but unbiased seekers of truth?

If you buy that, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

 

Quote

Precisely.

Methinks perhaps you should instead be paying me for providing this commodity.

[ardillacid]

[Peace]

52 minutes ago, Socrates said:

Highly probable.  Certainly not unbiased, or sane.

Thanks.  I will.

Or maybe you should think before linking to incredibly stupid op-eds to try to make your case.

 

So how exactly do laws requiring all voters to bring ID to prove they are who they claim to be prevent blacks from voting?

??? . . .

Please spell it out for me, 'cause I'm obtuse, remember.

Were blacks being turned down IDs?  Are driver's licenses with photos racist?

 

 

Unless I'm missing something, these laws required exactly the same of white voters as black voters (or voters of any race), and didn't treat anyone differently.

But are you really so naive as to think that every judge is a purely fair and unbiased purveyor of justice, interested in nothing but upholding the law?  Or that those who write for the WP are nothing but unbiased seekers of truth?

If you buy that, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

 

Methinks perhaps you should instead be paying me for providing this commodity.

How about the actual court opinion? I will admit that the Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit is not nearly as unbaised a source as the conservative review, but you will have to forgive me just this one time.

http://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000156-3775-d2b4-a3d7-b7fdaa6a0001

As you will note by reading said opinion, the laws involved more than simple photo identification. Certain forms of voting, such as early voting, were restricted only after the legislature requested and obtained data that indicated that African Americans were more likely to make use of early voting. Other forms of voting were retained because the data indicated that white voters were more likely to make use of them. 

The same holds true for various forms of identification that were prohibited and allowed. It appears that the law was specifically designed to make it more difficult for certain ethnic groups to vote.

[Papist]

12 hours ago, Peace said:

I honestly didn't think you were so obtuse  as to read "freezing to death" literally. I will try to keep that in mind when conversing with you in the future.

Here ya go. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/08/03/courts-are-finally-pointing-out-the-racism-behind-voter-id-laws/?0p19G=c

What the rest of the world calls anti-fraud measures, US leftists call racist.

[Peace]

43 minutes ago, Papist said:

What the rest of the world calls anti-fraud measures, US leftists call racist.

Since when do you speak for the rest of the world? I hadn't heard that Papist was named Press Secretary to the planet.

Besides, it isn't as simple as you suggest. It only appears simple to those who are ignorant of the facts and issues involved. 

For the record, I have no problem with voter ID as a general principle. I have a problem when voting laws are specifically designed with the intent to reduce voting among particular ethnic groups, and where nearly non-existent voter fraud is used as a pretense to attempt to make it more difficult for them to vote. There is strong evidence to suggest that is what happened here.