Basilisa Marie Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 More and more it seems like some people are less concerned with the actual salvation of souls and more concerned with... other things. I don't know if that's actually true, but that's certainly the impression that I get. In my experience priests who let divorced and remarried people receive communion are going to do it regardless of what the pope says. What good has come from the dubia stuff so far? I'm genuinely asking, because from where I sit I've only encountered bad things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 Well ideally it will inspire certain people to actually care again what the Church teaches on the subject, because that seems to be sadly lacking at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 42 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said: Well ideally it will inspire certain people to actually care again what the Church teaches on the subject, because that seems to be sadly lacking at the moment. So what, to get the pope to say "lol sorry dudes I was wrong you were right I'm gonna listen to you from now on"? How is this different from a power play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 1 hour ago, Basilisa Marie said: So what, to get the pope to say "lol sorry dudes I was wrong you were right I'm gonna listen to you from now on"? How is this different from a power play? Perhaps you should go back to what the four cardinals actually wrote so you can read the answer to that question in their own words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotpink Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 On 12/26/2016 at 9:13 PM, Jack4 said: It'd show better if he responded to "an act of justice and charity". Is there any way in which those who are ignorant about the value of the Eucharist can be further alienated? You deleted half my quote. I said Mercy and Justice which is very close to justice and charity. My point was that the Pope has stepped in and said things that do divide. Also, for those of you who like Benedict style more, didn't he say the whole reason he retired was that he did not have the energy and ability to institute and lead the church through the changes it needed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 20 hours ago, Basilisa Marie said: So what, to get the pope to say "lol sorry dudes I was wrong you were right I'm gonna listen to you from now on"? How is this different from a power play? I think this is an uncharitable reading of the cardinals motivations, especially when they explicitly said that isn't their motivation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountrySteve21 Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 (edited) We have had far worse Popes than His Holiness. I usually don't worry about the faults of our Church leaders, not my place; I have enough sins of my own to worry about. Our best bet is to pray for them and grow in holiness yourself. Edited December 28, 2016 by CountrySteve21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 I love Pope Francis. He's my favorite Pope. I'm just passing along news from EWTN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack4 Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 (edited) 10 hours ago, hotpink said: You deleted half my quote. I said Mercy and Justice which is very close to justice and charity. My point was that the Pope has stepped in and said things that do divide. I think you did not get my reference. to the dubia. Edited December 29, 2016 by Jack4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 On 12/26/2016 at 10:24 AM, Maggyie said: The thing is that harping on the rules will just alienate these people who are ignorant about the value of the Eucharist. Excommunication and withholding Sacraments works well when the faithful are catechized to value what they are missing. In the current environment people would just say "mean!" and not go to church period. Sorry, but I'll have to disagree on this. It seems the "we don't want to scare people away" argument is used to justify every kind of watering down and laxity of teaching and practice, but this has not seemed to have led to actually bringing more people to the Faith. In parishes I've been at, the priest has made a brief but firm statement about reception of the Eucharist at Christmas and Easter masses, and I've seen no evidence that it drives people away. When a majority of Catholics don't believe in the Real Presence, more teaching and instruction on this is needed, not less. If the Holy Eucharist is treated as only a piece of bread and some cheap wine, to be casually handed out by an army of "extraordinary ministers" to everyone present like candy, this is generally not going to foster belief and reverence. If it is made clear that there are certain requirements for proper reception, in addition to being correct teaching and beneficial to the souls of those present, it also makes it known that the Eucharist is regarded at least as something holy which is taken very seriously. And regarding the Eucharist, Christ Himself did not avoid speaking truth in order to keep people from turning away (see John 6). And St. Paul warned against unworthy reception in 1 Corinthians 11:30. On 12/28/2016 at 5:54 PM, CountrySteve21 said: We have had far worse Popes than His Holiness. I usually don't worry about the faults of our Church leaders, not my place; I have enough sins of my own to worry about. Our best bet is to pray for them and grow in holiness yourself. The issue at stake about isn't the personal virtue or wickedness of the Pope. It's about correct teaching of Catholic doctrine and practice, and a public statement that seems ambiguous at best regarding the teaching of Jesus Christ Himself about divorce and remarriage being adultery, and the practice of withholding Communion from those in grave public sin. This is something that affects the entire Church; it's not just about the Pope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 Maybe I'm missing something. Is there some kind of public-to-the-other-parishoners announcement when a divorced and remarried individual gets an annulment of a prior marriage (like the opposite of a marriage bann)? I don't think I've ever seen such a thing. And I'm pretty sure most people don't make a public announcement if they decide to live celibately! I totally get that the point of denying communion to remarried couples is to avoid the impression that the church believes divorce is allowed, but is there any actual way for the general public or other church-goers to know the difference between people "legitimately" remarried or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 Marriages are public by nature in our society. It is a public act. Marriage licences, status, these are a matter of public record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack4 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said: Marriage licences, status, these are a matter of public record. If a (civilly) remarried couple resolve to live as brother and sister, should they make this decision public? No offence (actually an appreciation of sorts), your writing reminds me of B16. On 12/30/2016 at 8:55 AM, Socrates said: The issue at stake about isn't the personal virtue or wickedness of the Pope. It's about correct teaching of Catholic doctrine and practice Hear, hear. Edited December 31, 2016 by Jack4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 6 hours ago, Jack4 said: If a (civilly) remarried couple resolve to live as brother and sister, should they make this decision public? Good question. I am not sure. It is a delicate situation in that case, which is why pastors are reminded that scandal most be avoided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack4 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 55 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said: Good question. I am not sure. It is a delicate situation in that case, which is why pastors are reminded that scandal most be avoided. Again, the succinct sweetness of B16. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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