Jack4 Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 3 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said: Legally speaking Pope Francis had no right to do what he did. Am I misinformed? I'm puzzled too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 To me, it looks clear that there is a lack of communication. When something/someone goes against things you hold dear, it is natural to desire an explanation. The fact this rift is going on is very sad. I personally would like to see the Pope make an effort to reaching to the disgruntled and attempt to reconcile. It is not about who is right, who wrong or liberal vs conservative vs traditional vs progressive.... It should be about making things right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bardegaulois Posted February 7, 2017 Author Share Posted February 7, 2017 11 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said: Legally speaking Pope Francis had no right to do what he did. Am I misinformed? Yes, I am of that mind too. This was a blatant violation of the sovereignty of the Order, something that, were it to happen between two sovereign entities of greater scale, could lead to armies massing on borders. As the matter in question was not canonical, international law governs the transactions between these two parties. Please tell me how what happened here was not a breach of the law of nations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 We should be talking about the moral dimension of this Maltese debacle too. As far as I am aware, the primary reason for Boeselager's dismissal was his complicity in and direction of distribution of condoms during Malteser relief efforts. My understanding is that other issues with Boeselager were secondary to this condom distribution. His dismissal then, especially if it were enacted in accordance with the laws of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, seems to be an act of justice. It seems that other avenues were persued first, and he was dismissed only after other options were exhausted. So Boeselager's dismissal then is - is it not? - an act of justice which promotes Catholic orthodoxy. What then are we to think when this dismissal is vacated and Festing, who is responsible for this just and orthodox act, is himself dismissed/compelled to resign? Especially when he was compelled by a force which lies outside the structure and laws, and in particular the sovereignty of the order of Malta. I think it can reasonably be suggested that justice is either on one side, or on neither. Ditto for doctrinal integrity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Nihil Obstat said: We should be talking about the moral dimension of this Maltese debacle too. As far as I am aware, the primary reason for Boeselager's dismissal was his complicity in and direction of distribution of condoms during Malteser relief efforts. My understanding is that other issues with Boeselager were secondary to this condom distribution. His dismissal then, especially if it were enacted in accordance with the laws of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, seems to be an act of justice. It seems that other avenues were persued first, and he was dismissed only after other options were exhausted. So Boeselager's dismissal then is - is it not? - an act of justice which promotes Catholic orthodoxy. What then are we to think when this dismissal is vacated and Festing, who is responsible for this just and orthodox act, is himself dismissed/compelled to resign? Especially when he was compelled by a force which lies outside the structure and laws, and in particular the sovereignty of the order of Malta. I think it can reasonably be suggested that justice is either on one side, or on neither. Ditto for doctrinal integrity. Lol, "pursued". Whoops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Nihil Obstat said: We should be talking about the moral dimension of this Maltese debacle too. As far as I am aware, the primary reason for Boeselager's dismissal was his complicity in and direction of distribution of condoms during Malteser relief efforts. My understanding is that other issues with Boeselager were secondary to this condom distribution. His dismissal then, especially if it were enacted in accordance with the laws of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, seems to be an act of justice. It seems that other avenues were persued first, and he was dismissed only after other options were exhausted. So Boeselager's dismissal then is - is it not? - an act of justice which promotes Catholic orthodoxy. What then are we to think when this dismissal is vacated and Festing, who is responsible for this just and orthodox act, is himself dismissed/compelled to resign? Especially when he was compelled by a force which lies outside the structure and laws, and in particular the sovereignty of the order of Malta. I think it can reasonably be suggested that justice is either on one side, or on neither. Ditto for doctrinal integrity. Not sure if it would be an act of justice. I do not know if the facts are true, but at least from what I read, the condoms were distributed to women who had been forced to work as prostitutes, to protect them from AIDS and other diseases. Whether things like that would violate the moral law is an open question, and has been debated elsewhere on this forum I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Peace said: Not sure if it would be an act of justice. I do not know if the facts are true, but at least from what I read, the condoms were distributed to women who had been forced to work as prostitutes, to protect them from AIDS and other diseases. Whether things like that would violate the moral law is an open question, and has been debated elsewhere on this forum I think. Do you have a link to that information? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 31 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said: Do you have a link to that information? http://bigstory.ap.org/article/feaacad67f7f42ef871b5acd6848564f http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/disorder-in-the-order-of-malta Two examples, but different articles say different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 7 minutes ago, Peace said: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/feaacad67f7f42ef871b5acd6848564f http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/disorder-in-the-order-of-malta Two examples, but different articles say different things. It seems likely the AP just omitted the part about also being used as birth control. Not really different, only one has info than the other. Also using condoms to prevent AIDS/HIV is not regarded by the Church as a real or moral solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 5 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said: It seems likely the AP just omitted the part about also being used as birth control. Not really different, only one has info than the other. Sure, but it could be complicated. The guy who was ousted, how much did he know, for what purpose did he believe they were used for, etc. 5 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said: Also using condoms to prevent AIDS/HIV is not regarded by the Church as a real or moral solution. In general I would agree, but I am not so sure that She would rule it out in every circumstance, especially where you are talking in the context of fornication, rape, homosexual sex, etc. Been debated on the forum already though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 12 minutes ago, Peace said: Sure, but it could be complicated. The guy who was ousted, how much did he know, for what purpose did he believe they were used for, etc. Could be a lot of things, it's all really very strange to me. I'm afraid right or wrong taking over the Order has harmed Pope Francis public image as kind and merciful. The posters seem to be proof of that. 12 minutes ago, Peace said: In general I would agree, but I am not so sure that She would rule it out in every circumstance, especially where you are talking in the context of fornication, rape, homosexual sex, etc. Been debated on the forum already though. Yes, but in many of those debates people confused condom usage as a "step in the direction of a moralization" with using condoms as a "real or moral solution." A Homosexual male using condoms to prevent AIDS/HIV for example is according to Benedict XVI a step in the direction of a moralization but is not regarded by Church as a real or moral solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 Someone has 'updated' the Wiki page for Pope Francis... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 33 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said: Someone has 'updated' the Wiki page for Pope Francis... Lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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