j_calvin Posted June 30, 2004 Posted June 30, 2004 [quote name='Paladin D' date='Jun 29 2004, 03:41 PM'] Majority of Liberals suppost abortion. I don't get it, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/voters_guide.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/voters_guide.asp[/url] I would like to hear your reasons, because I honestly can't think of any for you. [/quote] Its a travashammockery that politicians don't live their faith. For faith is the key to their salvation. If they believe one thing they need to believe in it all. Just can't pick one apple because it looks better than the other ones. Very Arminian.
Archbishop 10-K Posted June 30, 2004 Posted June 30, 2004 Catholics vote liberal, aka Democrat, because back in the old days, the Democratic Party represented Catholics in America. But nowadays, the Democratic Party has switched sides morally. It's just a matter of when the Catholic faithful will switch as well. For example, my step-dad is what I would consider to be a faithful Catholic. That is, he tries to fall in line with Catholic teaching, but he's poorly catechized, plus he's been working and voting for, and indoctrinated by the Democratic Party for so long that the thought of switching to Republican is inconceivable for him. I'm working on getting him to be a Republican, or at least the good ol' Catholic Independent that most of us are at heart.
RandomProddy Posted June 30, 2004 Posted June 30, 2004 (edited) [quote name='Ellenita' date='Jun 29 2004, 11:50 PM'] I have always voted on the basis of which of the main parties I think will do the most to empower the most vulnerable people in society and create a sense of community - I could never have voted for Margaret Thatcher for example! [/quote] I hope you don't change your view of me, but I'm one of those rare things, a 21 year-old Tory... Edited June 30, 2004 by RandomProddy
Paladin D Posted June 30, 2004 Author Posted June 30, 2004 [quote name='Iacobus' date='Jun 29 2004, 08:10 PM'] LOL! Did I imply Kerry passed? LOL! If I did I was nuts. But my point is Bush doesn't pass either. [/quote] I thought you were implying that, but I guess I was wrong.
BurkeFan Posted June 30, 2004 Posted June 30, 2004 [quote name='Iacobus' date='Jun 29 2004, 05:06 PM'] Social Justice. Respect for ALL life. Being pro life is much more than being anti abortion. Think about it. And Bush fails 2 of the 5 non-negs on the "Voter guide" and many key points on the USCCB voters guide (even under the all important "Protecting Human Life" section. So yeh. Why do Faithful Catholic's vote GOP? [/quote] Which two?
jessinoelw Posted June 30, 2004 Posted June 30, 2004 Maybe instead of generic classifications such as "liberal" and "conservative" you should say, "Why do Catholics vote in favor of (fill in the blank with a specific issue or specific candidate)?" Such as, "How could a Catholic vote in favor ?" There is a lot more to "liberal" than pro-choice/pro-homosexual, etc. You can choose to vote for "liberal" issues and not vote for "liberal" candidates. Republican does not equal Catholic/Christian. Look at Dorothy Day. She wasn't a Republican. --Jessica
BurkeFan Posted June 30, 2004 Posted June 30, 2004 [quote name='jessinoelw' date='Jun 29 2004, 08:36 PM'] Look at Dorothy Day. She wasn't a Republican. [/quote] However, the parties of her day weren't what they are today.
crusader1234 Posted June 30, 2004 Posted June 30, 2004 A few things here... According to that voter's guide, Bush cannot be voted for. If it is a 'non negotiable' (abortion) and he isnt fully pro-life, then you cant vote for him... you can't vote for Kerry either. There are third party candidates you CAN vote for. As for Liberals (big L meaning the Canadian political party) - there are some MP's who are pro life. There are a lot of Conservatives who are pro-choice or not willing to defend the rights of the fetus - including Stephen Harper. I think its also important to point out the fact that there are people who are Liberal when it comes to environmental and economical issues, and Conservative on moral issues. I fall into that category.
Aloysius Posted June 30, 2004 Posted June 30, 2004 (edited) Read the Voter's guide more carefully, it says you can vote for the one who violates less of the non-negotiables. besides, Bush is pro-life. Edited June 30, 2004 by Aloysius
Iacobus Posted June 30, 2004 Posted June 30, 2004 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Jun 29 2004, 09:01 PM'] Read the Voter's guide more carefully, it says you can vote for the one who violates less of the non-negotiables. besides, Bush is pro-life. [/quote] Yes but he has failed to be pro life. He stated that he would not seek to overturn apporaval of RU 486 (sp?). Therefore he is not pro life. Is he pro abort? No. Pro life? No.
Chrysologus Posted June 30, 2004 Posted June 30, 2004 There are plenty of reasons for a Catholic to vote for Democrats. Opposition to capital punishment, universal health care, support for the poor, and fighting to end racism and other forms of discrimination are all good, Christian principles of social justice which align well with the Democratic party. There are also some very good reasons to vote Republican, most especially their (albeit imperfect) pro-life stance and opposition to so-called gay "marriage." WARNING: Rant ahead. The Catholic Answers and EWTN voter guides are hardly the last word in moral theology. If voting for a candidate who supports abortion is a mortal sin, then so must be voting for any candidate who supports anything you believe to be sinful. Most Catholics believe that the death penalty and the war on Iraq are sinful, yet George W. Bush supports these things. If we go by these so-called voter guides, then there probably aren't very many candidates we can vote for. Now, don't get me wrong, voting for only pro-life candidates is admirable (I myself follow this rule), but it's not a moral absolute that we can impose on everyone. The problem with their thinking, as I see it, is that voting for a certain political candidate has never meant that you agree with everything he or she proposes, and most certainly does _not_ constitute formal cooperation with all of his or her endeavors.
ilovechrist Posted June 30, 2004 Posted June 30, 2004 [quote name='BurkeFan' date='Jun 29 2004, 09:38 PM'] However, the parties of her day weren't what they are today. [/quote] thank you for reminding everybody of that. personally, *though i still can't vote yet*, the Republicans look like the good guys to me. they seem to be the lesser evil..
crusader1234 Posted June 30, 2004 Posted June 30, 2004 [quote]Read the Voter's guide more carefully, it says you can vote for the one who violates less of the non-negotiables. besides, Bush is pro-life. [/quote] Bush isn't pro life... unless you consider the morning after pill or the DP in cases where they could contain a criminal pro-life. And you know what, Bush isn't as good as a lot of 3rd party candidates. And you know what? The voters guide isnt ex-cathedra and it isnt from the Pope - I'll vote for whomever I think best exemplifies Catholic morals. The guide may or may not agree with me.
jmjtina Posted June 30, 2004 Posted June 30, 2004 unfaithful catholics vote liberal.....(i.e., abortion, homosexual marriages, etc)
Paladin D Posted June 30, 2004 Author Posted June 30, 2004 [quote name='Chrysologus' date='Jun 29 2004, 10:29 PM'] There are plenty of reasons for a Catholic to vote for Democrats. Opposition to capital punishment, universal health care, support for the poor, and fighting to end racism and other forms of discrimination are all good, Christian principles of social justice which align well with the Democratic party. There are also some very good reasons to vote Republican, most especially their (albeit imperfect) pro-life stance and opposition to so-called gay "marriage." WARNING: Rant ahead. The Catholic Answers and EWTN voter guides are hardly the last word in moral theology. If voting for a candidate who supports abortion is a mortal sin, then so must be voting for any candidate who supports anything you believe to be sinful. Most Catholics believe that the death penalty and the war on Iraq are sinful, yet George W. Bush supports these things. If we go by these so-called voter guides, then there probably aren't very many candidates we can vote for. Now, don't get me wrong, voting for only pro-life candidates is admirable (I myself follow this rule), but it's not a moral absolute that we can impose on everyone. The problem with their thinking, as I see it, is that voting for a certain political candidate has never meant that you agree with everything he or she proposes, and most certainly does _not_ constitute formal cooperation with all of his or her endeavors. [/quote] Universal healthcare is NOT the answer. I'm not very knowledable on the issue, but I've heard many stories where Canadians just get their prescribtion drugs and mediocure doctor visits, and out the door.
crusader1234 Posted June 30, 2004 Posted June 30, 2004 As a Canadian, I can tell you thats not the case - as well, I can tell you that we are currently overhauling the whole system. Heresay annoys me.
Iacobus Posted June 30, 2004 Posted June 30, 2004 I have family in Canada. I know doctors in the states. I know family who are doctors in the states. All the family in Canada love the health system. The doctors here aren't 100% gung ho because they would lose some profit (I say give them tort reform *reduces insurance* and offsets lost prohit and trust me those guys and gals could afford a small cut). And I agree with Chrysologus about the Voter Guides. I am not a big fan of the non-negs or the EWTN one. I liked it when I 1st read them. Than I talked with my priest about it and read the one put out by the USCCB and well EWTN and CA tried to take Calc and give it to you in a form understandable by 1st graders. Moral voting is much more involed than 5 points. Read the Faithful Citizenship Bishops Statement on the USCCB site. Rember the USCCB has teaching authoirty that CA and EWTN don't have and can never have.
Hananiah Posted June 30, 2004 Posted June 30, 2004 [quote name='Chrysologus' date='Jun 29 2004, 09:29 PM'] The Catholic Answers and EWTN voter guides are hardly the last word in moral theology. If voting for a candidate who supports abortion is a mortal sin, then so must be voting for any candidate who supports anything you believe to be sinful. Most Catholics believe that the death penalty and the war on Iraq are sinful, yet George W. Bush supports these things. If we go by these so-called voter guides, then there probably aren't very many candidates we can vote for. Now, don't get me wrong, voting for only pro-life candidates is admirable (I myself follow this rule), but it's not a moral absolute that we can impose on everyone. The problem with their thinking, as I see it, is that voting for a certain political candidate has never meant that you agree with everything he or she proposes, and most certainly does _not_ constitute formal cooperation with all of his or her endeavors. [/quote] The Catholic Church teaches that abortion is an intrinsically evil act; it has never said the same regarding either the death penalty or war. With respect to the death penalty, the Catechism of the Council of Trent actually called the execution of murderers an act of supreme obedience to the fifth commandment (you shall not kill). Granted, John Paul II has suggested that society has progressed to the point where capital punishment is no longer necessary, however he has left the decision of when and where to apply it to the relevant civil authorities (Evangelium Vitae 56). And by the way, 74% of Catholic favor the death penalty. The issue of the Iraq war is similar. Whether the war against Iraq is unjust is a prudential judgment which Catholics are free to make for themselves, until such time as the Pope makes it for them. So far, all John Paul II has done is advise against the war. He could, if he so desired, issue a formal decree condemning it as unjust and forbidding all Catholics from participation. But he has chosen not to do so. At least for now, Catholics may take opposite sides on this issue yet remain in good standing within the Church.
Hananiah Posted June 30, 2004 Posted June 30, 2004 That having been said, my support is 100% behind Michael Peroutka of the Constitution Party. He's 100% pro-life, 100% anti-war, and 100% anti-sodomy. www.peroutka2004.com
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