dominicansoul Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 I think he needs to stop all his agendas and focus on only one: clearing the priesthood/episcopate/cardinalate of pedophiles, active homosexuals and those who prey on women... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 10 hours ago, KnightofChrist said: You're just assuming the "Our Lady" is in reference to Mary when it could just as easily be Our Lady of the Amazon, Pachamama. I'm not going to dismiss the 'big shots' in the Vatican who made clear this was not Mary, nor will I just dismiss the Pope naming them 'pachamama statues'. To plant is to have hope. It is believing in a growing and fruitful life to satisfy the hunger of Mother Earth's creation. This brings us to our origin by reconnecting divine energy and teaching us the way back to the Creator Father. The Synod is to plant this tree, water and cultivate, so that the Amazonian peoples are heard and respected in their customs and traditions experiencing the mystery of the divinity present in the Amazonian ground. Planting in the Vatican Garden is a symbol that invites the Church to be even more committed to the forest peoples and all of humanity. But also, it is the denunciation of those who destroy our common house by greed in search of their own profit. Statement by Ednamar de Oliveira Viana, Leader of the tree planting ceremony. Source: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OUVKTMjh4TPA057aPU0i4FMhW4SHwD619W09OsxZOew/edit?usp=drivesdk ---- 'Mother Earth', 'divinity present in the Amazonian ground'. Also, P. is the Queen of the Forest, which is why one may refer to the demon as our lady. One way she is worshipped by offering things to the ground. And if you watch the pagan ceremony video posted earlier in the thread you can see this offering and worship of P. 8 hours ago, KnightofChrist said: "Missio, the pastoral agency of the Italian Episcopal Conference, published a prayer to Pachamama in an April 2019 publication devoted to the Special Assembly of the Synod of Bishops for the Pan-Amazon Region." [...] "Pachamama of these places, drink and eat this offering at will, so that this earth may be fruitful. Pachamama, good Mother, be favorable! Be favorable! Make that the oxen walk well, and that they not become tired. Make that the seed sprout well, that nothing bad may happen to it, that the cold may not destroy it, that it produce good food. We ask this from you: give us everything. Be favorable! Be favorable!" Source: https://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=43919 3 hours ago, dominicansoul said: I think he needs to stop all his agendas and focus on only one: clearing the priesthood/episcopate/cardinalate of pedophiles, active homosexuals and those who prey on women... He's unlikely to begin going after his friends and advisors this late into the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 6 hours ago, dominicansoul said: I think he needs to stop all his agendas and focus on only one: clearing the priesthood/episcopate/cardinalate of pedophiles, active homosexuals and those who prey on women... I agree. It's pretty sad that this one issue has done so much damage to the Church but it seems pretty far down on the list of priorities. . . FWIW the task seems pretty gargantuan though. It's going to take a few decades to solve that problem I think. I know people are going to disagree with me but I feel like the priesthood is stock full of gay or very effeminate men. I don't know for sure of course but at least 1/3 priests I know come off this way. I know folks are gonna disagree strongly with me but I am starting to think that nixing the celibacy requirement might be of some use here. Let married men join the priesthood. Interview their wives. At least then we have some kind of reasonable proof that the guy isn't gay. OK. That's bad. I know. It is what it is. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penitent60 Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 I think the whole synod thing being about recognising only the Amazon peoples is actually rather disrespectful of all the minority groups around the world...just sayin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 On 11/8/2019 at 11:11 PM, KnightofChrist said: nor will I just dismiss the Pope naming them 'pachamama statues'. Well then you must also believe that the statutes were in the Vatican without idolatrous intentions, since Pope Francis also said that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 3 hours ago, Peace said: Well then you must also believe that the statutes were in the Vatican without idolatrous intentions, since Pope Francis also said that. Can't just ignore logic though (P. is in fact a idol), nor can I ignore the prayer by the Italian Bishops Conference to P., or the statement of Ednamar de Oliveira Viana, or the various other pagan ceremonies by Church officials leading up to the worship of the demon in the Vatican gardens that I've not posted about, yet. Not like you have done, quite conveniently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 "The Synod is to plant this tree, water and cultivate, so that the Amazonian peoples are heard and respected in their customs and traditions experiencing the mystery of the divinity present in the Amazonian ground." - Ednamar de Oliveira Viana, leader of the Tree planting ceremony and worship of the demon P. in the Vatican gardens. Here we have the leader of the ceremony making quite clear it is in fact pagan. Divinity is present in the Holy Eucharist, not the dirt. We do not bow down low to dirt nor idols. No more room for we can't know what was in their hearts. Oliveira Viana tells us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 5 hours ago, KnightofChrist said: Can't just ignore logic though (P. is in fact a idol), No, it has not been established that the particular statutes present in the Vatican were idols. 5 hours ago, KnightofChrist said: nor can I ignore the prayer by the Italian Bishops Conference to P., or the statement of Ednamar de Oliveira Viana, I’ll need to take a look at these. I don’t think anyone has posted them up to this point so I have not even heard of them yet. 5 hours ago, KnightofChrist said: or the various other pagan ceremonies by Church officials leading up to the worship of the demon in the Vatican gardens that I've not posted about, yet. No, it has not been established that there was worship of a demon in the Vatican in this particular case. 5 hours ago, KnightofChrist said: Not like you have done, quite conveniently. I have conveniently ignored something that has not even been posted yet? I think we may have different definitions of the word ignore. In my world a person must actually be aware of something in order to ignore it Have a blessed a Sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 On 11/9/2019 at 1:23 AM, KnightofChrist said: "Missio, the pastoral agency of the Italian Episcopal Conference, published a prayer to Pachamama in an April 2019 publication devoted to the Special Assembly of the Synod of Bishops for the Pan-Amazon Region." [...] "Pachamama of these places, drink and eat this offering at will, so that this earth may be fruitful. Pachamama, good Mother, be favorable! Be favorable! Make that the oxen walk well, and that they not become tired. Make that the seed sprout well, that nothing bad may happen to it, that the cold may not destroy it, that it produce good food. We ask this from you: give us everything. Be favorable! Be favorable!" Source: https://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=43919 I had a look at the pamphlet. You can find it here. https://cloud.3dissue.com/77366/77720/110027/Sussidi-Amazzonia/index.html?r=22 I don't read whatever language that is written in but it appears to be presented more for cultural / educational purposes than as a prayer that is recommended for Catholics to pray. If you look at the pamphlet it appears to be an educational pamphlet that explains the culture of that region or environmental issues that it faces. In the pamphlet it is identified as a "Prayer to the Mother Earth of the Inca peoples". https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/italian-bishops-mission-org-publishes-prayer-to-pachamama-in-official-booklet So I am not sure why you think this pamphlet proves demon worship in the Vatican. It seems that you are grasping at whatever straw you can find to try to build a case to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 49 minutes ago, Peace said: No, it has not been established that the particular statutes present in the Vatican were idols. That is a blatant falsehood. 49 minutes ago, Peace said: I’ll need to take a look at these. I don’t think anyone has posted them up to this point so I have not even heard of them yet. Posted earlier in the thread. 49 minutes ago, Peace said: No, it has not been established that there was worship of a demon in the Vatican in this particular case. Again, a blatant falsehood. Does not confirm to reality nor the evidence. 49 minutes ago, Peace said: I have conveniently ignored something that has not even been posted yet? I've posted the prayer and the statement. You conveniently somehow missed those posts. 49 minutes ago, Peace said: I think we may have different definitions of the word ignore. In my world a person must actually be aware of something in order to ignore it Have a blessed a Sunday. I don't expect you to respond to the ceremonies I've not brought up yet. I do expect you to respond to the prayer posted and statement directly after the post you replied to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 4 hours ago, KnightofChrist said: "The Synod is to plant this tree, water and cultivate, so that the Amazonian peoples are heard and respected in their customs and traditions experiencing the mystery of the divinity present in the Amazonian ground." - Ednamar de Oliveira Viana, leader of the Tree planting ceremony and worship of the demon P. in the Vatican gardens. Here we have the leader of the ceremony making quite clear it is in fact pagan. Divinity is present in the Holy Eucharist, not the dirt. We do not bow down low to dirt nor idols. No more room for we can't know what was in their hearts. Oliveira Viana tells us. Didn't you post these pictures before? I thought that you did. As we discussed, what you are doing with these photos is substantively no different than what this anti-Catholic author is doing with this photo: https://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False Religions/Roman Catholicism/proof.htm Or what this anti-Catholic author is doing with this photo: https://carm.org/catholic/do-catholics-worship-mary As for the quote - If you think that the person who said that meant that the dirt contains the body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord in the same way that the Eucharist does, that would be a bit of a stretch. Of course in a sense God is present in his creation and you can see that in the Bible itself. See Romans 1:18 et seq for an easy example of that. Honestly it seems that you are on a bit of a witch hunt here. 4 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said: That is a blatant falsehood. No, what you wrote is false. 4 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said: Posted earlier in the thread. Thank you. 4 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said: Again, a blatant falsehood. Does not confirm to reality nor the evidence. No, what you wrote is false. 4 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said: I've posted the prayer and the statement. You conveniently somehow missed those posts. I just looked at them. Thank you. 4 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said: I don't expect you to respond to the ceremonies I've not brought up yet. I do expect you to respond to the prayer posted and statement directly after the post you replied to. I think I just responded to them. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 4 minutes ago, Peace said: I had a look at the pamphlet. You can find it here. https://cloud.3dissue.com/77366/77720/110027/Sussidi-Amazzonia/index.html?r=22 I don't read whatever language that is written in but it appears to be presented more for cultural / educational purposes than as a prayer that is recommended for Catholics to pray. If you look at the pamphlet it appears to be an educational pamphlet that explains the culture of that region or environmental issues that it faces. In the pamphlet it is identified as a "Prayer to the Mother Earth of the Inca peoples". https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/italian-bishops-mission-org-publishes-prayer-to-pachamama-in-official-booklet So I am not sure why you think this pamphlet proves demon worship in the Vatican. It seems that you are grasping at whatever straw you can find to try to build a case to me. The name of the demon is clearly used, Pachamama. It is a prayer to P. I believe, and correctly so, that the prayer to P. is a prayer to a demon. Because idol goddess' (which is in fact what P. is) are demons. I'm not the one grasping at straws here, that is you Sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said: The name of the demon is clearly used, Pachamama. It is a prayer to P. I believe, and correctly so, that the prayer to P. is a prayer to a demon. Because idol goddess' (which is in fact what P. is) are demons. So what if it is? As I wrote, it appears to be presented for educational purposes to explain the culture of that region. It does not appear to be presented as a prayer that the Catholic faithful should themselves pray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Peace said: Didn't you post these pictures before? I thought that you did. As we discussed, what you are doing with these photos is substantively no different than what this anti-Catholic author is doing with this photo: https://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False Religions/Roman Catholicism/proof.htm Catholics venerate Mary and the Saints, as I have stated, this is a form of worship but not adoration which alone belongs to God. I thought you dropped the comparison because it logical leads to what you say is not the case. By continuing this comparison you are admitting the statues of P. were being venerated. Do you argue that they may be venerating P. on the same level as Catholics venerate Mary? Or venerating like we do God? Quote Or what this anti-Catholic author is doing with this photo: https://carm.org/catholic/do-catholics-worship-mary As for the quote - If you think that the person who said that meant that the dirt contains the body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord in the same way that the Eucharist does, that would be a bit of a stretch. I believe she was very clear. Mother Earth, the earth itself contains Divinity. Quote Of course in a sense God is present in his creation and you can see that in the Bible itself. See Romans 1:18 et seq for an easy example of that. God made the dirt, but God is not dirt. Quote Honestly it seems that you are on a bit of a witch hunt here. No, what you wrote is false. Thank you. No, what you wrote is false. I just looked at them. Thank you. I think I just responded to them. Thank you. Imitation is the greatest form of flattery. 15 minutes ago, Peace said: So what if it is? As I wrote, it appears to be presented for educational purposes to explain the culture of that region. It does not appear to be presented as a prayer that the Catholic faithful should themselves pray. See, do you see, this is grasping at straws. There is no such indication, just a wild guess of a language you admit you cannot even identify. There is a Catholic prayer a few pages before. Are we to believe that prayer was a real prayer but not the prayer to P.? Or both prayers are prayers Catholics are not really supposed to pray? Edited November 10, 2019 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 (edited) 20 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said: Catholics venerate Mary and the Saints, as I have stated, this is a form of worship but not adoration which alone belongs to God. I thought you dropped the comparison because it logical leads to what you say is not the case. By continuing this comparison you are admitting the statues of P. were being venerated. I have admitted no such thing. Quote Do you argue that they may be venerating P. on the same level as Catholics venerate Mary? Or venerating like we do God? No. I have not made that argument. Quote I believe she was very clear. Mother Earth, the earth itself contains Divinity. Ah. Your favorite word again. "Clearly" he meant that our Lord is physically present in the dirt. Or not. Quote God made the dirt, but God is not dirt. You amuse me. Quote Imitation is the greatest form of flattery. You are most welcome friend. There are many good things about you. Quote See, do you see, this is grasping at straws. There is no such indication, just a wild guess of a language you admit you cannot even identify. As I wrote before the prayer is identified as "Prayer to the Mother Earth of the Inca peoples". That is a quote from LifeSite News. To me this indicates that it is a prayer of the Incan peoples, not a prayer of the Catholic faithful. You can flip through the rest of the pamphlet and see the types of pictures and so forth to get a sense that it is an educational pamphlet. There is a map of the region and demographic information about the region, for example. But yes it is true that this conclusion could be wrong because I don't read the language. Why don't you ask your friends over at Rorate to translate the entire document for us? Quote There is a Catholic prayer a few pages before. Are we to believe that prayer was a real prayer but not the prayer to P.? Or both prayers are prayers Catholics are not really supposed to pray? I think that most Catholics are smart enough to distinguish between them appropriately. Edited November 10, 2019 by Peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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