Hananiah Posted July 1, 2004 Posted July 1, 2004 I beseech Blessed Mary, Immaculate and Ever Virgin Queen of Heaven and Earth, Mother of Martyrs, Mother of the Church, Mother of God, Who crushes the serpent's head, to pray for whoever decided that I'm not Catholic.
the lumberjack Posted July 1, 2004 Posted July 1, 2004 you must not be, Han...you keep posting stuff criticizing the magestereum.... so...for the "safety" of all the other catholics here, you are no longer part of the Shweetheart Babysitter's Club, either.
RandomProddy Posted July 1, 2004 Posted July 1, 2004 Your status on this board is determined by a single value entry in a database on a server somewhere you will never see. It has no effect on your salvation. That said, welcome to our club!
dUSt Posted July 1, 2004 Posted July 1, 2004 [quote]I beseech Blessed Mary, Immaculate and Ever Virgin Queen of Heaven and Earth, Mother of Martyrs, Mother of the Church, Mother of God, Who crushes the serpent's head, to pray for whoever decided that I'm not Catholic.[/quote] I don't think you are, but hey, that's just me. I don't think John Kerry is either, but he does. No big deal. I based my decision on the comments you made about John Paul II. By all means, continue to be Catholic. I just don't feel comfortable allowing you to represent yourself as one on my website.
Laudate_Dominum Posted July 1, 2004 Posted July 1, 2004 Dang! What's been going on since I left?? Hananiah? I always remember your posts as being quite good, what is the story? Do you have a problem with the Pope or something?
Hananiah Posted July 2, 2004 Author Posted July 2, 2004 Cmom said Trads are like little kids who refuse to play if they can't have things their way. I pointed out that in the past the Catholic Church has had Popes who have done any number of immoral and scandalous things and have even taught heresy, and that no one who lived during their pontificates would have been bound to accept and defend everything they said and did. Rather, like Ss. Paul, Athanasius, and Catherine the proper course of action would be to pray for the Pope, make sure his words and actions did not damage the faith of their fellow Catholics, and make every effort to induce the Pope to self-reform, perhaps even by rebuking him. Then I listed a number of things John Paul II has said and done, and said that I pray nightly that he repent of these things, and would rebuke him if given the chance. There is a double standard here. No one on this board would condemn the saints I mentioned above, but when I attempt to imitate them as they imitate Christ suddenly I'm not a Catholic.
P3chrmd Posted July 2, 2004 Posted July 2, 2004 If you still recieve the eucharist and believe in real presence then you are CATHOLIC! AND THAT NON-CATHOLIC REMARK SHOULD be taken off of your avatar!!!!!!!!!!! Don't make me call Mother Angelica now!
p0lar_bear Posted July 2, 2004 Posted July 2, 2004 (edited) [quote name='P3chrmd' date='Jul 1 2004, 11:20 PM'] If you still recieve the eucharist and believe in real presence then you are CATHOLIC! AND THAT NON-CATHOLIC REMARK SHOULD be taken off of your avatar!!!!!!!!!!! Don't make me call Mother Angelica now! [/quote] Not to make a comment on Hananiah's status, but it takes a lot more than belief in the Real Presence to make one Catholic. The Eastern Orthodox believe in and have the Real Presence, but don't try to call one a Catholic. There are people who believe in the Real Presence, but think there is no valid pope (not a reference to Hananiah); they aren't Catholic either. Schismatics like Old Catholics, the SSPX, and Cardinal Thuc's group are not any more Catholic than the Orthodox Churches are. As far as the label goes...dUst's house, dUst's rules. If you have a problem, take it up with dUst [i]in private[/i]. Edited July 2, 2004 by p0lar_bear
ThyWillBeDone Posted July 2, 2004 Posted July 2, 2004 Yep Polar Bear is right, I mean believeing in the real presence in not the only requirement to be Catholic, I am sure Hananiah would agree with that fact. And it is Dust board so if he has decided to give Hananiah the non-catholic label that up to him. I personaly trust Dust to do what is right, he has always seem to be fair, just and concerned for the moral and theological well being of the people who post here. if he believes it is best that Hananiah have a non-catholic label I trust him on that one. God Bless, Chris
P3chrmd Posted July 2, 2004 Posted July 2, 2004 Well, I didn't mean to state that that was ALL that was required to be catholic. Although, I guess it must have sounded like that! I just ment that...I don't think its fair for Hananiah to get that lable and she is CATHOLIC! I mean this is not excommunication here! Oh well...thats just my opinion...but I also respect dUST and understand that it is the decision of the owner! Im just a newbie poster!
Laudate_Dominum Posted July 2, 2004 Posted July 2, 2004 [quote name='Hananiah' date='Jul 1 2004, 08:48 PM'] Cmom said Trads are like little kids who refuse to play if they can't have things their way. I pointed out that in the past the Catholic Church has had Popes who have done any number of immoral and scandalous things and have even taught heresy, and that no one who lived during their pontificates would have been bound to accept and defend everything they said and did. Rather, like Ss. Paul, Athanasius, and Catherine the proper course of action would be to pray for the Pope, make sure his words and actions did not damage the faith of their fellow Catholics, and make every effort to induce the Pope to self-reform, perhaps even by rebuking him. Then I listed a number of things John Paul II has said and done, and said that I pray nightly that he repent of these things, and would rebuke him if given the chance. There is a double standard here. No one on this board would condemn the saints I mentioned above, but when I attempt to imitate them as they imitate Christ suddenly I'm not a Catholic. [/quote] That sounds dangerous. Ss. Paul, Athanasius, Catherine, etc. were called by God to do many extraordinary things, and they did so with humility and heroic sanctity, but I don't think that means its ok to publicly criticize papa when we are ruffled about something. And I can think of things I've read by John Paul II that a couple years ago kind of bothered me, but now I realize that I just didn't understand... I guess I don't really know what problems you have so I don't know if this applies. Are you mad about koran kissing and all that, or do you think the Pope is a modernist or something? In any case, I don't think publically criticizing the Pope like that is imitating the saints you named. If you don't believe me read St. Catherine's letters to the Pope, they are hardly scolding and condemning. And she was explicitly called by God to do that and she didn't even want to do that. It wasn't an, "I know better than the Pope" thing, it humbled her to do it. Also with Paul and Athanasius, Paul was an Apostle for crying out loud and Athanasius was a holy bishop, and both were instruments of God used for that purpose. Smearing the Pope on the internet seems a little too close to things such as slander, calumny, gossip, detraction, backbiting, aspersion, olboquy, etc.. When I read stuff (esp. rad-trad) that disses on the Pope and tries to cast suspicion upon him, it seems like a rebellion or mutiny against Papa.. Ack, I've babbled enough over this. I hope I haven't seemed rude or insensitive, I'm speaking my mind for sure. Peace.
Hananiah Posted July 2, 2004 Author Posted July 2, 2004 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Jul 2 2004, 03:43 PM'] That sounds dangerous. Ss. Paul, Athanasius, Catherine, etc. were called by God to do many extraordinary things, and they did so with humility and heroic sanctity, but I don't think that means its ok to publicly criticize papa when we are ruffled about something. [/quote] I agree that it is wrong to criticise the Pope for no other reason than frustration. However, I think there are some legitimate reasons to do so, for example to prevent fellow Catholics from emulating sinful behavior (No, son, it's not ok to put corpses on trial, not even if the Pope does it. The Pope is wrong.), to encourage other Catholics to pray for the Pope's repentance (this was the context of the statement which got me the non-Catholic label), or to induce the Pope to self-reform (a la St. Catherine). [quote]And I can think of things I've read by John Paul II that a couple years ago kind of bothered me, but now I realize that I just didn't understand... I guess I don't really know what problems you have so I don't know if this applies.[/quote] I will PM you a link to an essay I wrote entitled "What is Traditionalism?" My grievances are listed there. It would get censored if I postedit here. [quote]If you don't believe me read St. Catherine's letters to the Pope, they are hardly scolding and condemning. And she was explicitly called by God to do that and she didn't even want to do that.[/quote] I don't relish my position either. Also, I try to remain charitable and fair in my criticisms. [quote]Smearing the Pope on the internet seems a little too close to things such as slander, calumny, gossip, detraction, backbiting, aspersion, olboquy, etc.. [/quote] It's a fine line, I agree. That's why I'm careful. [quote]When I read stuff (esp. rad-trad) that disses on the Pope and tries to cast suspicion upon him, it seems like a rebellion or mutiny against Papa.. [/quote] I am still a loyal subject. If the Pope ordered me to do something, I would do it (provided, of course, he didn't order me to do something sinful, in which case I would invoke canon law's teaching on the state of necessity).
Mary's Knight, La Posted July 2, 2004 Posted July 2, 2004 hmmm i don't know if this thread started before the title change or not but your title says nothing about your being catholic it says you don't represent the church's teaching, technically i deserve that title too (though i'm not asking for it, and asking not to have it) because I do not have enough knowledge on the church's teachings, though as far as submitting my will and intellect to the teachings of the church as i've heard them i'm catholic through and through. if this thread started before the title change then dUST thank you for once again proving your awesomeness in taking into account people's feelings if this thread happened afterwards then i cannot understand your complaint
dUSt Posted July 2, 2004 Posted July 2, 2004 The thread started before the title change. I created a new group for those I don't feel comfortable representing the Church here at phatmass--yet, still claim Catholicism as their religion (separating them from the non-Catholic group). I call these new people "Phishy". Not only is it funny, it gives me another chance to replace an "f" with a "ph".
ThyWillBeDone Posted July 2, 2004 Posted July 2, 2004 [quote name='Hananiah' date='Jul 2 2004, 06:00 PM'] I think there are some legitimate reasons to do so, for example to prevent fellow Catholics from emulating sinful behavior (No, son, it's not ok to put corpses on trial, not even if the Pope does it. The Pope is wrong.), to encourage other Catholics to pray for the Pope's repentance (this was the context of the statement which got me the non-Catholic label),[/quote] If you are working to prevent other Catholic form emulating the popes sinful behavior this implies that his behavior is sinful. What gives you the authority to decide that the Pope the head of the Church has sinned? The same thing applies in asking catholics to pray for his repentance, what makes you think you can decide if he needs to repent. He is the head of the church, you do not have the right or abilty to judge weither he is a in a state of sin. Chris
Hananiah Posted July 2, 2004 Author Posted July 2, 2004 [quote name='ThyWillBeDone' date='Jul 2 2004, 05:27 PM'] If you are working to prevent other Catholic form emulating the popes sinful behavior this implies that his behavior is sinful. What gives you the authority to decide that the Pope the head of the Church has sinned? The same thing applies in asking catholics to pray for his repentance, what makes you think you can decide if he needs to repent. He is the head of the church, you do not have the right or abilty to judge weither he is a in a state of sin. Chris [/quote] Sometimes, Chris, it is simply obvious that an act is objectively sinful. You've heard me mention Stephen VI's corpse trial anumber of times, right? Will anyone here deny that Pope Stephen's actions were objectively sinful?
ThyWillBeDone Posted July 2, 2004 Posted July 2, 2004 (edited) So who determines when something is obviously sinful. You? What is obvious to you, like our current pope's actions being sinful, it not obvious to me, or many many catholics. Chris Edited July 2, 2004 by ThyWillBeDone
Quietfire Posted July 2, 2004 Posted July 2, 2004 (edited) Hananiah, First of all, this IS dUSt's house and house rules apply. We ALL knew that when we signed up to play here. Second, St. Catherine didnt go on the WORLDWIDE internet to critisize the Pope. Especially when it involved asking others to pray for his repentance. Third and finally, If you have a problem with the fact that dUSt changed your title, then you should, out of courtesy, private message HIM and talk about it. This isnt the place to do it. This is only a rude rebuke at him and this entire website. Much like if you came to my house for dinner and then griped about the entree, not only to me but in front of all my other guests, I promise I would never invite you back. What is wrong with people today that feel as though its ok to wail and moan about anything THEY dont agree with or like. Instead of taking the extra time to figure things out, talk to those involved and try to come to some accord. No! Lets just all run outside screaming conspiracy! This may seem like an attack, but it isnt. I am much older than most of the others here, I have seen and heard to much of this for too long, even outside the Church. People who think they know the rules better than the one who made the rules. People who think that they have the "right" to critisize and "decide" what is right or wrong. People who then complain when they are rightly put in their place. (again, this is not an attack. I was once one of those people) This is not a double standard. Rather, look at our own society now. The very minute someone doesnt get their way, theyre ready to take ya to court and sue, or worse, they pull out a gun and start shooting. We have become a very selfish society indeed. It's about time someone started standing up for what is right. To sit there and complain about the Pope on a Catholic website is like talking trash about your best friends dad while your friends dad is in the next room getting the rods ready for the family fishing trip that you were personally invited to go on with them, by him. He considers you one of the family, and this is how you repay him? Nice. What's the problem? Youre upset because of your title? Get over it. Please. Until you show some respect and especially some maturity then nothing will get resolved. Oh, and it doesnt say you are a Non-Catholic. It simply states that you do not represent the Church, and that you are phishy. Meaning...?? (as in 'what's the hubbub..bub') Or as my mom would say, "Dang if that boy aint talking out his neck! Enough. Ive said my piece. Peace :peace: Edited July 2, 2004 by Quietfire
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