Hananiah Posted July 2, 2004 Author Posted July 2, 2004 [quote name='ThyWillBeDone' date='Jul 2 2004, 06:15 PM'] So who determines when something is obviously sinful. You? [/quote] Anyone can. Like I said, do you deny that it is obviously a sin to put a corpse on trial? A Pope did that. If you lived during his pontificate, would you tell your children that what the Pope was doing was a sin? [quote]What is obvious to you, like our current pope's actions being sinful, it not obvious to me, or many many catholics. Chris[/quote] Read the moral theological definition of cooperating with evil, then read a Catholic commentary on the first commandment. Then read about Assisi.
ThyWillBeDone Posted July 2, 2004 Posted July 2, 2004 What is obviously sinful to you may not be sinful to me, or anyone else. So it your opinion vs. the opinion of those who disagree with you, which would include the pope. So I simple can not accept that your public critism of the popes action based on you opnion on things is ok. If you are catholic you should not be publicly critizing the pope simply becuase you feel he is wrong. You must understand that your moral judgement of his action can be wrong. And since it can be wrong,and as catholics we are called to accept the judgements of the magisterium and the pope you should not publicly express it like you have been. Chris
dUSt Posted July 2, 2004 Posted July 2, 2004 [quote name='Hananiah' date='Jul 2 2004, 06:28 PM'] Anyone can. [/quote] So now it's up to the individual to decide what is and isn't a sin? What is the Church's role in determining this? It appears as if you've embraced Protestant theology, picking and choosing what aspects of Church teaching/authority you decide to accept.
ThyWillBeDone Posted July 2, 2004 Posted July 2, 2004 That is along the lines of what I was trying to express Dust is just much much better at it then me. Chris
cmotherofpirl Posted July 3, 2004 Posted July 3, 2004 [quote name='Hananiah' date='Jul 2 2004, 08:28 PM'] Anyone can. Like I said, do you deny that it is obviously a sin to put a corpse on trial? A Pope did that. If you lived during his pontificate, would you tell your children that what the Pope was doing was a sin? Read the moral theological definition of cooperating with evil, then read a Catholic commentary on the first commandment. Then read about Assisi. [/quote] We are not talking about a previous pope so don't cloud the issue. We are talking about the current Servant of servants, the Vicar of Christ on earth. You are not qualified to judge him, and neither am I. You were not at Assisi and neither was I. Therefore your opinon is based on hearsay and not fact. Somehow i doubt if you had a direct command of God to rebuke the Holy Father. I see you like Saint stories, how about this one..,. Saint Francis once went into a town and the people gathered around him to tell him stories about their terrible priest who had a mistress. He said he would go see the priest and the whole town followed behind him hoping for some good entertainment. When he saw the priest, he fell on his knees and kissed the hands of the priest and saying "I don't know anything else about you, but I know these hands bring me Jesus Christ. Thank you, thank you."
Hananiah Posted July 3, 2004 Author Posted July 3, 2004 [quote name='dUSt' date='Jul 2 2004, 06:40 PM'] So now it's up to the individual to decide what is and isn't a sin? What is the Church's role in determining this? [/quote] Absolutely not. What is and isn't sin is founded in natural law and divine positive law and it has been entrusted to the Catholic Church to safegaurd and explicate their contents. This is not a matter of private judgment. However, it is often left to individuals to compare the Church's teachings on morality with the actions of individuals to determine whether they are conflicting or in harmony. In order to avoid being edited, I will post only the major and minor premises of the following syllogism about Assisi, and leave it up to you to infer the conclusion. You can find both of these teachings in the Catechism. 1. It is sinful to encourage someone else to commit a sin. 2. Worshipping a false god is the sin of idolatry. [quote]It appears as if you've embraced Protestant theology, picking and choosing what aspects of Church teaching/authority you decide to accept.[/quote] No, I accept the teachings of the Catholic Church in toto.
Hananiah Posted July 3, 2004 Author Posted July 3, 2004 [quote name='Quietfire' date='Jul 2 2004, 06:16 PM'] If you have a problem with the fact that dUSt changed your title, then you should, out of courtesy, private message HIM and talk about it. [/quote] If he's willing to publicly call me a non-Catholic, he shouldn't have a problem with my publicly praying for him. He's a big boy.
littleflower+JMJ Posted July 3, 2004 Posted July 3, 2004 [quote name='Hananiah' date='Jul 2 2004, 10:58 PM'] If he's willing to publicly call me a non-Catholic, he shouldn't have a problem with my publicly praying for him. He's a big boy. [/quote] lets keep in mind whos a visitor in this big house called phatmass. how quickly we can forget that we are merely guests here pax.
Hananiah Posted July 3, 2004 Author Posted July 3, 2004 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jul 2 2004, 08:19 PM'] We are not talking about a previous pope so don't cloud the issue. [/quote] This isn't clouding the issue. Admit it, if you lived during the reign of Pope Stephen VI, you would publicly call a spade a spade; his actions were immoral. And if you would do that, then you have no grounds for condemning my criticism of the current Pope [i]on the principle[/i] that it is never licit to criticise the reigning Pontiff. You would be forced to admit that there are situations in which it is proper and just to do so. Then all you could argue in the present case is that I have come to a mistaken conclusion about John Paul II. You would no longer be able to simply say, "stop saying that." You would have to engage my arguments about Assisi and Qur'an kissing on the merits (which no one has done yet). This is why I keep bringing up the corpse trial. I could do some digging and come up with some even more blatantly sinful actions which Popes have committed in the past, just to drive my point home, if you like. [quote]Saint Francis once went into a town and the people gathered around him to tell him stories about their terrible priest who had a mistress. He said he would go see the priest and the whole town followed behind him hoping for some good entertainment. When he saw the priest, he fell on his knees and kissed the hands of the priest and saying "I don't know anything else about you, but I know these hands bring me Jesus Christ. Thank you, thank you."[/quote] I have had similar thoughts about my former pastor at Penn State. He taught so much poison to the RCIA class (extra ecclesiam nulla salus is heresy, there's nothing wrong about homosexuality, etc.) but on the other hand, he restored me to a state of grace when I had fallen into mortal sin, and gave me the body of Christ. I pray for him almost as often as I pray for the Pope.
cmotherofpirl Posted July 3, 2004 Posted July 3, 2004 I have no clue what I would have done during the reign of Pope Stephen and I do not engage in chronological snobbery for the mere speculation of it. Nobody has ever claimed previous popes were perfect, that is not a requirement for the office. THe Pope has to be infallible in teaching faith and morals, but not impeccable. If he has made mistakes, he will answer the same as you or I. You were not present at either occasion you criticise and therefore are relying on hearsay evidence. CALUMNY. Injuring another person's good name by lying. It is doubly sinful, in unjustly depriving another of his good name and in telling an untruth. DEFAMATION. Unjust injury of a person's good name. It consists in telling facts that harm another's reputation. In defamation, there is at least an implicit intention to harm the reputation of another, who is absent and therefore not a witness to being defamed. Defamation may be committed in two ways: by spreading injurious facts that are true but not publicly known, or by saying things that are false. DETRACTION. Revealing something about another that is true but harmful to that person's reputation. It is forbidden to reveal another person's secret faults or defects, unless there is proportionate good involved. The fact that something is true does not, of itself, justify its disclosure. Detraction is a sin against justice. It robs one of what most people consider more important than riches, since a person has a strict right to his or her reputation whether it is deserved or not. (Etym. Latin detractio, a withdrawal.) We do not criticise the current Pope on THIS site, feel free to do it elsewhere to your hearts content. It won't happen here. Sounds like your pastor had the same teachers my professors had.
Hananiah Posted July 3, 2004 Author Posted July 3, 2004 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jul 3 2004, 09:04 AM'] I have no clue what I would have done during the reign of Pope Stephen and I do not engage in chronological snobbery for the mere speculation of it. [/quote] So in other words, yes you would tell your children that the Pope was sinning and that they should not emulate him. [quote]You were not present at either occasion you criticise and therefore are relying on hearsay evidence.[/quote] There are pictures and news reports from multiple sources. One need not be an eyewitness to have reliable information about an event. Just take a look at the Fatima pictures. John Vennari was right all along. [quote]CALUMNY. Injuring another person's good name by lying. It is doubly sinful, in unjustly depriving another of his good name and in telling an untruth.[/quote] Well, I haven't lied about the Pope yet. [quote]DEFAMATION. Unjust injury of a person's good name. It consists in telling facts that harm another's reputation. In defamation, there is at least an implicit intention to harm the reputation of another, who is absent and therefore not a witness to being defamed. Defamation may be committed in two ways: by spreading injurious facts that are true but not publicly known, or by saying things that are false.[/quote] These events are most certainly publicly known. [quote]DETRACTION. Revealing something about another that is true but harmful to that person's reputation. It is forbidden to reveal another person's secret faults or defects, unless there is proportionate good involved. The fact that something is true does not, of itself, justify its disclosure. Detraction is a sin against justice. It robs one of what most people consider more important than riches, since a person has a strict right to his or her reputation whether it is deserved or not. (Etym. Latin detractio, a withdrawal.)[/quote] I think there is a proportionate good involved. People need to know that it is sinful to encourage others to sin, and that worshipping a false god is a sin against the first commandment. Someone might emulate the Pope if they didn't know better. Also, the Pope needs prayers. [quote]We do not criticise the current Pope on THIS site, feel free to do it elsewhere to your hearts content. It won't happen here.[/quote] Well, if you don't want traditionalists to explain and defend their position, stop writing about how mean and nasty we are.
cmotherofpirl Posted July 3, 2004 Posted July 3, 2004 [quote name='Hananiah' date='Jul 3 2004, 01:46 PM'] So in other words, yes you would tell your children that the Pope was sinning and that they should not emulate him. There are pictures and news reports from multiple sources. One need not be an eyewitness to have reliable information about an event. Just take a look at the Fatima pictures. John Vennari was right all along. Well, I haven't lied about the Pope yet. These events are most certainly publicly known. I think there is a proportionate good involved. People need to know that it is sinful to encourage others to sin, and that worshipping a false god is a sin against the first commandment. Someone might emulate the Pope if they didn't know better. Also, the Pope needs prayers. Well, if you don't want traditionalists to explain and defend their position, stop writing about how mean and nasty we are. [/quote] I never said you were mean and nasty. You simply will noit criticise the Holy Father here. There are plenty of sites out there, feel free to spend scandal. calunmy, and defamation somewhere else.
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