On Papal Authority

[Pope Saint Pius V]

Since I cannot respond to the thread on those pesky ultra-traditionalists (started by dust) I will simply post this. It speaks for itself. Melchior Cano was (and is) one of the most respected theologians produced by the Church.

Peter has no need of our lies or flattery. Those who blindly and indiscriminately defend every decision of the Supreme Pontiff are the very ones who do most to undermine the authority of the Holy See - they destroy instead of strengthening its foundations." -Melchior Cano

[littleflower+JMJ]

your pspx's friend aren't you?

[Aloysius]

i think he's his predecessor by 32 popes



The above quote is true, but not necessarily to the extent you may be thinking

[Pope Saint Pius V]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 2 2004, 10:58 PM'] i think he's his predecessor by 32 popes



The above quote is true, but not necessarily to the extent you may be thinking [/quote]
Unless you are able to read souls (which would be awsome and scary at the same time) you should not speculate as to what I am thinking .

[Aloysius]

okay, sorry. I was just guessing what point you were planning on making based on the nature of the thread you wanted to post that on.

on another note, i wonder, has there ever been anyone with spiritual gifts like reading souls that extended through the internet? that'd be interesting and scary and really neato.

[Pope Saint Pius V]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 2 2004, 11:13 PM'] okay, sorry. I was just guessing what point you were planning on making based on the nature of the thread you wanted to post that on.

on another note, i wonder, has there ever been anyone with spiritual gifts like reading souls that extended through the internet? that'd be interesting and scary and really neato. [/quote]
Not bloody likely. I would say that if they have that gift, it has nothing to do with the internet.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Pope Saint Pius V' date='Jul 2 2004, 10:53 PM'] Since I cannot respond to the thread on those pesky ultra-traditionalists (started by dust) I will simply post this.  It speaks for itself.  Melchior Cano was (and is) one of the most respected theologians produced by the Church.

Peter has no need of our lies or flattery. Those who blindly and indiscriminately defend every decision of the Supreme Pontiff are the very ones who do most to undermine the authority of the Holy See - they destroy instead of strengthening its foundations." -Melchior Cano [/quote]
It is always unwise to accept the opinion of a single theologian, no matter how respectable he may be, over the definitive teaching of the Sacred Magisterium. Melchior Cano lived several hundred years before the infallible definitions on the primacy of jurisdiction and the infallibility of the Roman Pontiff, his views and the views of many other theologians were debated by the Council Fathers, but it is the definitive teaching proclaimed by the Fathers of Vatican 1, to which all Catholics must, as a matter of divine and catholic faith, give assent, and not the private opinion of Melchior Cano.

Edited July 3, 2004 by Apotheoun

[Pope Saint Pius V]

Nothing in that quotation contradicts what was later defined. In fact, it shows the proper balance is quite close (though certainly not in exact formulation) to those declarations. He more or less shoots right down the middle between Manning and Newman.

Edited July 3, 2004 by Pope Saint Pius V

[Pope Saint Pius V]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 2 2004, 11:13 PM'] on another note, i wonder, has there ever been anyone with spiritual gifts like reading souls that extended through the internet?  that'd be interesting and scary and really neato. [/quote]
This brings up an interesting question though. Can there be some spiritual activity through the some communication device. For instance, if it was absolutely the only possibility could a person go to confession over the phone?

Now that I think about it, I suppose a person who was able to read souls could do so through the internet if that is what the Divine Will desired.

How did we get on this subject?

Edited July 3, 2004 by Pope Saint Pius V

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Pope Saint Pius V' date='Jul 3 2004, 08:31 AM']Nothing in that quotation contradicts what was later defined.  In fact, it shows the proper balance is quite close (though certainly not in exact formulation) to those declarations.  He more or less shoots right down the middle between Manning and Newman.[/quote]
As Venerable John Cardinal Newman wrote: "We must [i]never[/i] suffer ourselves to doubt, that, in his [i.e., the Pope's] government of the Church, [i]he is guided by an intelligence more than human[/i]. His yoke is the yoke of Christ, he has the responsibility of his own acts, [i]not we[/i]; and to his Lord must he render account, [i]not to us[/i]. Even in secular matters it is ever safe to be on his side, [i]dangerous to be on the side of his enemies[/i]. Our duty is, not indeed to mix up Christ's Vicar with this or that party of men, because he in his high station is above all parties, but to look at his formal deeds, [i]and to follow him whither he goeth, and never to desert him, however we may be tried, but to defend him at all hazards, and against all comers, as a son would a father, and as a wife a husband, knowing that his cause is the cause of God[/i]. And so, as regards his successors, if we live to see them; [i]it is our duty to give them in like manner our dutiful allegiance and our unfeigned service, and to follow them also whithersoever they go, having that same confidence that each in his turn and in his own day will do God's work and will, which we have felt in their predecessors, now taken away to their eternal reward[/i]. [John Cardinal Newman, [u]Sermons Preached on Various Occasions[/u], "The Pope and the Revolution," Sermon 15, section I, no. 1; preached on 7 October 1866, in the Church of the Oratory, Birmingham, England]

Edited July 3, 2004 by Apotheoun

[Pope Saint Pius V]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 3 2004, 08:56 AM'] but to look at his formal deeds [/quote]
Here is the key phrase. What is "formal deeds"? Judging by his arguments at the council it is much more restricted than you are attempting to imply here.

Edited July 4, 2004 by Pope Saint Pius V

[ThyWillBeDone]

Wow that is an awesome quote Apotheoun. John Cardinal Newman's writings are just amazing
God Bless,
Chris

[Aloysius]

The Church has come out against internet or phone confessions, but i donno if they're allowed in extreme circumstances.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Pope Saint Pius V' date='Jul 3 2004, 09:26 PM'] Here is the key phrase.  What is "formal deeds"?  Judging by his arguments at the council it is much more restricted than you are attempting to imply here. [/quote]
Since many of Pope John Paul II's deeds that socalled "traditionalists" have a hard time accepting are quite clearly "formal deeds" of the present Pontiff, i.e., acts in which he is functioning as the official head of the Church (e.g., the Assissi events, issuing liturgical norms, advocating interreligious dialogue, etc.), perhaps you might clarify this thread by listing which of his acts you hold that you are exempted from accepting.

Edited July 4, 2004 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 3 2004, 09:50 PM'] The Church has come out against internet or phone confessions, but i donno if they're allowed in extreme circumstances. [/quote]
This would be by definition invalid, because the sacramental signs require the proximity of the priest and the penitent. Any attempt to celebrate the sacrament of penance over the phone or on the internet would be to simulate the sacrament, and would be a grave offense.

Edited July 4, 2004 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 3 2004, 09:50 PM'] The Church has come out against internet or phone confessions, but i donno if they're allowed in extreme circumstances. [/quote]
Another of the reasons that this practice is condemned focuses on the seal of confession. Click on the link below to see the brief article on this topic:

[url="http://zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=29711"]http://zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=29711[/url]

[Apotheoun]

The Pontifical Council for Social Communications has stated the following in its document on the Church's use of the Internet:

"Although the virtual reality of cyberspace cannot substitute for real interpersonal community, the incarnational reality of the sacraments and the liturgy, or the immediate and direct proclamation of the gospel, it can complement them, attract people to a fuller experience of the life of faith, and enrich the religious lives of users. It also provides the Church with a means for communicating with particular groups—young people and young adults, the elderly and home-bound, persons living in remote areas, the members of other religious bodies—who otherwise may be difficult to reach." [PCSC [u]The Church and the Internet[/u], no. 5]

"Similarly, as noted above, the virtual reality of cyberspace has some worrisome implications for religion as well as for other areas of life. Virtual reality is no substitute for the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the sacramental reality of the other sacraments, and shared worship in a flesh-and-blood human community. [i][b]There are no sacraments on the Internet[/b]; and even the religious experiences possible there by the grace of God are insufficient apart from real-world interaction with other persons of faith[/i]. Here is another aspect of the Internet that calls for study and reflection. At the same time, pastoral planning should consider how to lead people from cyberspace to true community and how, through teaching and catechesis, the Internet might subsequently be used to sustain and enrich them in their Christian commitment." [PCSC [u]The Church and the Internet[/u], no. 9]

Edited July 4, 2004 by Apotheoun

[jmjtina]

[quote name='Pope Saint Pius V' date='Jul 2 2004, 10:53 PM'] Those who blindly and indiscriminately defend every decision of the Supreme Pontiff are the very ones who do most to undermine the authority of the Holy See - they destroy instead of strengthening its foundations." -Melchior Cano [/quote]
Wow, and I don't even know you. Funny if we say we love our current Pope, all of a sudden we're blind and indiscrimate.

But in what context is the quote?

[quote]In 1556 he wrote his famous Consultatio theologica, in which he advised the king to resist the temporal encroachments of the papacy and, as absolute monarch, to defend his rights by bringing about a radical change in the administration of ecclesiastical revenues, thus making Spain less dependent on Rome.[/quote]

That was said in a different time and different context. Why do many forget the quote of St. Augustine? "Rome has spoken; the case is closed." (Sermon 131:10) on matters of infallibility.

[jmjtina]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 3 2004, 08:56 AM'] As Venerable John Cardinal Newman wrote: "We must [i]never[/i] suffer ourselves to doubt, that, in his [i.e., the Pope's] government of the Church, [i]he is guided by an intelligence more than human[/i]. His yoke is the yoke of Christ, he has the responsibility of his own acts, [i]not we[/i]; and to his Lord must he render account, [i]not to us[/i]. Even in secular matters it is ever safe to be on his side, [i]dangerous to be on the side of his enemies[/i]. Our duty is, not indeed to mix up Christ's Vicar with this or that party of men, because he in his high station is above all parties, but to look at his formal deeds, [i]and to follow him whither he goeth, and never to desert him, however we may be tried, but to defend him at all hazards, and against all comers, as a son would a father, and as a wife a husband, knowing that his cause is the cause of God[/i]. And so, as regards his successors, if we live to see them; [i]it is our duty to give them in like manner our dutiful allegiance and our unfeigned service, and to follow them also whithersoever they go, having that same confidence that each in his turn and in his own day will do God's work and will, which we have felt in their predecessors, now taken away to their eternal reward[/i]. [John Cardinal Newman, [u]Sermons Preached on Various Occasions[/u], "The Pope and the Revolution," Sermon 15, section I, no. 1; preached on 7 October 1866, in the Church of the Oratory, Birmingham, England] [/quote]
I'm putting that in my personal "quotes" section.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='jmjtina' date='Jul 4 2004, 12:27 PM'][quote name='Pope Saint Pius V' date='Jul 2 2004, 10:53 PM']Those who blindly and indiscriminately defend every decision of the Supreme Pontiff are the very ones who do most to undermine the authority of the Holy See - they destroy instead of strengthening its foundations." -Melchior Cano[/quote]
Wow, and I don't even know you. Funny if we say we love our current Pope, all of a sudden we're blind and indiscrimate.[/quote]
It is funny how that tends to be the attitude of some people.

[quote name='jmjtina' date='Jul 4 2004, 12:27 PM']But in what context is the quote?
[quote]In 1556 he wrote his famous Consultatio theologica, in which he advised the king to resist the temporal encroachments of the papacy and, as absolute monarch, to defend his rights by bringing about a radical change in the administration of ecclesiastical revenues, thus making Spain less dependent on Rome.[/quote][/quote]
Thank you, for providing context to Melchior Cano's statement.

[quote name='jmjtina' date=' Jul 4 2004, 12:27 PM']That was said in a different time and different context.  Why do many forget the quote of St. Augustine?  "Rome has spoken; the case is closed." (Sermon 131:10) on matters of infallibility.[/quote]
Because some people, under the guise of tradition, wish to dissent from the formal deeds of the reigning Pontiff, who happens to be the guardian of tradition. As a former Protestant, I have no desire to dissent from the acts of the Sovereign Pontiff; and so, along with Cardinal Newman, I shall ". . . follow [the Pope] whither he goeth, and never to desert him, however [I] may be tried, but to defend him at all hazards, and against all comers, as a son would a father." [John Cardinal Newman, [u]Sermon Preached on Various Occasions[/u], "The Pope and the Revolution," Sermon 15, section I, no. 1; preached on 7 October 1866, in the Church of the Oratory, Birmingham, England]

jmjtina, thank you again for your post.

Edited July 4, 2004 by Apotheoun