On Papal Authority

[Guest JeffCR07]

Just to respond to this quote:

[quote]The Church has come out against internet or phone confessions, but i donno if they're allowed in extreme circumstances. [/quote]

Another reason for this is because all Sacraments have both "form" and matter." In the case of Baptism, the matter is water (remember, baptism by blood and desire are not "sacraments" in the official sense, though they remain "baptism" as the person in question is entering the Church). For Anointing of the Sick, it is oil. For the Eucharist, it is the physical manifestation of bread/flesh and wine/blood. For Confession it is the laying on of hands or the raising of hands above the one confessing. For Confirmation, it is the chrism. For Marriage it is the rings. For Holy Orders i think it is also chrism, though a priest could tell you for sure.

In the case of phone or online confession the matter is impossible, and, as such, a licit sacrament cannot exist. Hope that helps.


- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff

[Aloysius]

yeah I know, I know. I only wondered about extreme circumstances, cause there are all kinds of exceptions regarding confession when it comes to extreme circumstances. but I assume I was wrong.

however, if I'm dyin on the side of the road and the only priest I can talk to is on the other end of a Phone, I'll still confess my sins and ask him to absolve me or at least bless me or something, just in case. It's not like it would hurt, and I'm gonna be dead in 5 minutes anyway.

Pax Amorque Christi

[Apotheoun]

Water is the remote matter ([i]materia remota[/i]) of the sacrament of Baptism, while the action of washing ([i]ablution[/i]) done by the priest is the proximate matter ([i]materia proxima[/i]) of the sacrament. The invocation of the Holy Trinity is the form of this sacrament.

For Confirmation the remote matter ([i]materia remota[/i]) is the oil blessed by the Bishop, while the laying on of hands and signing of the person with the cross is the proximate matter ([i]materia proxima[/i]). The form of this sacrament is the prayer of the priest sealing the person with the Holy Spirit. In the West the Bishop is normally the celebrant of this sacrament, although a priest if deputed by the Bishop can celebrate Confirmation as an extraordinary minister. In the East the priest ordinarily confers this sacrament, which is normally called Chrismation.

For Anointing of the Sick the remote matter ([i]materia remota[/i]) is the oil blessed by the Bishop, while the laying on of hands of the priest is the proximate matter ([i]materia proxima[/i]). The prayer of epiclesis is the form of this sacrament.

For the sacrament of the Eucharist the bread and wine are the matter, and the form is the prayer over the elements by the priest (in the West the focus is on the Words of Institution, while in the East the epiclesis calling down the Holy Spirit is the focus).

For Confession the matter of the sacrament is the contrition and confession of the penitent, while the form consists in the absolution given by the priest.

For Holy Orders the matter of the sacrament is the laying on of hands of the Bishop, and the form is the prayer consecrating the priest to act in the person of Christ.

For the sacrament of Marriage the mutual consent of the spouses in which they offer themselves to each other is the form of the sacrament (and in the Eastern Churches the blessing of the priest is also necessary for validity), and the matter is the mutual and consensual acceptance of this offer by the spouses, culminating in the consummation of the marriage through the conjugal act.

It is the impersonal nature of telecommunications that inhibits the possibility of celebrating a sacrament over the phone or the internet, and that is why the PCSC stated that, "There are no sacraments on the Internet; and even the religious experiences possible there by the grace of God are insufficient apart from real-world interaction with other persons of faith." [PCSC [u]The Church and the Internet[/u], no. 9]

Edited July 5, 2004 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 4 2004, 11:11 PM'] yeah I know, I know.  I only wondered about extreme circumstances, cause there are all kinds of exceptions regarding confession when it comes to extreme circumstances.  but I assume I was wrong.

however, if I'm dyin on the side of the road and the only priest I can talk to is on the other end of a Phone, I'll still confess my sins and ask him to absolve me or at least bless me or something, just in case.  It's not like it would hurt, and I'm gonna be dead in 5 minutes anyway.   

Pax Amorque Christi [/quote]
There is no exception in this case, and so rather than waste time trying to phone or instant message a priest, you should make a perfect act of contrition. There is no harm in phoning a priest in such a situation, but it would not be a true and valid sacrament.

Edited July 5, 2004 by Apotheoun

[IcePrincessKRS]

Would a priest be able to grant a general absolution long distance if he knew that a person were ill or dying but unable to arrive in time to give Last Rites? (Not necessarily over the phone or internet but just with the knowledge of the situation grant general absolution.) I am curious because can't priests grant general absolution for soldiers away at war? Or does the priest have to be present to grant it?

Edited July 5, 2004 by IcePrincessKRS

[Guest JeffCR07]

I believe the answer is no, though I have no documentation to back it up. The only case of general absolution I have heard is in the case of war, and it is done by a priest who is acting as a chaplain and cannot hear the vast number of confessions that need to be heard. However, even in these extreme cases, the priest is physically present. I do not believe it is possible to give even a general absolution without physical proximity.

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff

[IcePrincessKRS]

Ok, thats what I was thinking but I wasn't 100% sure.

Thanks Jeff.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 4 2004, 11:11 PM'] yeah I know, I know.  I only wondered about extreme circumstances, cause there are all kinds of exceptions regarding confession when it comes to extreme circumstances.  but I assume I was wrong.

however, if I'm dyin on the side of the road and the only priest I can talk to is on the other end of a Phone, I'll still confess my sins and ask him to absolve me or at least bless me or something, just in case.  It's not like it would hurt, and I'm gonna be dead in 5 minutes anyway.   

Pax Amorque Christi [/quote]
There's no reason to. If those are your thoughts at the time, then most likely you would be in a state of "perfect contrition." If you have the intention of going to Reconciliation and are unable to, and you're in the state of mortal sin, but still feel sorry for your sins, then really you are most likely in that state. Now this is not to say that if you can't go to Reconciliation before Mass that you can receive Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament because really you can go to Reconciliation. Now if you're on the side of the road and a priest cannot make it to you and you die longing for Reconciliation, this works. Then in that case you can be saved.

Edited July 5, 2004 by qfnol31

[Aloysius]

i understand all that, but I don't presume it cuz you're not supposed to. I'd rather talk to a priest on the phone just in case.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 5 2004, 12:11 PM'] i understand all that, but I don't presume it cuz you're not supposed to. I'd rather talk to a priest on the phone just in case. [/quote]
It does no harm to talk to a priest on the phone in that situation, but he can't give you absolution, so be sure to make a perfect act of contrition.

God bless,
Todd

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jul 5 2004, 03:51 AM'] I believe the answer is no, though I have no documentation to back it up. The only case of general absolution I have heard is in the case of war, and it is done by a priest who is acting as a chaplain and cannot hear the vast number of confessions that need to be heard. However, even in these extreme cases, the priest is physically present. I do not believe it is possible to give even a general absolution without physical proximity.

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff [/quote]
During 3 Mile Island, all Catholics in our part of Pennsylvania were given General Absolution. The news reports didn't scare us up to that point, but the GA scared the hell out of everyone. THAT we took seriously.

[Guest JeffCR07]

who issued the general absolution? It may be possible that the Holy See or a local Bishop ordered it, and that it was then preformed by a local priest, which would validate Apotheoun's proximity argument.

[cmotherofpirl]

The bishops of PA and it was announced on the TV stations.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jul 5 2004, 12:56 PM'] The bishops of PA and it was announced on the TV stations. [/quote]
Only the local Ordinary or the Apostolic See can issue a general absolution. In other words, my bishop here in California could not issue a general absolution for the Catholic faithful in Pennsylvania, because he is not their local Ordinary, and is not in any way in proximity to the faithful there, either by physical proximity or by canonical jurisdiction. Therefore, physical proximity and proper jurisdiction are both required for the performance of such an action. Only the Roman Pontiff whose authority over the Catholic Church is both universal and particular, can issue a general absolution without some form of physical proximity.

[IcePrincessKRS]

So a priest can't grant General Absolution, only Bishops or the Pope?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' date='Jul 5 2004, 01:07 PM'] So a priest can't grant General Absolution, only Bishops or the Pope? [/quote]
Priests do not have the authority to issue a general absolution without the prior approval of their bishop. If a priest does give general absolution without proper approval, it is a grave abuse.

[IcePrincessKRS]

Thanks. I never really understood what exactly is involved in granting general absolution, this helps alot. Though its not quite the original topic I am glad this was brought up, it cleared up any confusion I had.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 5 2004, 12:15 PM'] It does no harm to talk to a priest on the phone in that situation, but he can't give you absolution, so be sure to make a perfect act of contrition.

God bless,
Todd [/quote]
I always wondered what your name was.

[Pope Saint Pius V]

Thanks for the clarification on the confession issue Apotheuon.

Edited July 6, 2004 by Pope Saint Pius V

[Guest JeffCR07]

Yea, I especially appreciate the clarity with regards to the proximate and formal matter.

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff