Catholics & Non-Catholics Dialogue Thread

[Era Might]

Since not everyone on Phatmass is Catholic or Christian, and not all Catholics agree with each other or even see the world from the same vantage point, I'd like to open a dialogue thread for an inter-religious dialogue. The purpose of this thread is not debate specifically, although it may include debate, but instead to propose your view of God and of the world that we live in, here and now, and what, if anything, you would propose to other human beings living in this world.

If you're Catholic, this is your chance to make a defense for the relevance of your religion, in reality and not in theory, and *to be challenged* with other points of view, either from non-Catholics or from other Catholics who see the world differently. If you are only on Phatmass to discuss Catholicism on its own terms, or on your own terms, then this is not the thread for you.

The purpose of this thread is not to "convert" anyone to anything, but to question each other, question ourselves, and ask whether we are actually living in the same world, or whether we are all locked inside separate realities with no hope of finding common ground. I start this thread in accordance with the Catholic Church's own request at the Second Vatican Council:

"The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men."

--Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions "Nostra Aetate"

If you consider yourself a Christian or a believer in God, then the purpose of this thread is to ask who is this God we believe in, and whether we can call ourselves brothers, or whether we are in fact enemies. This is not the thread for Catholics to debate intra-Catholic politics like traditionalism, etc. The focus should remain on more fundamental questions about God and religion, what it means to believe in God in 2021, what is expected of us as believers and/or as human beings in a global world of 8 billion people.

If you're not interested in this discussion, then that's fine, and I don't know if anyone will be interested, but if you *are* interested, please engage in the thread in the spirit of what I laid out above. I will follow up with some thoughts of my own to get us started.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Era Might

[Era Might]

I don't want to start with too many thoughts, although I have a lot to say, because I don't know where others are interested in taking the discussion. I'm open to discussing on different levels: spiritual, historical, theological, philosophical, etc.

I'll start with some well-known remarks by then-Cardinal Ratzinger, because I saw it quoted in another thread:

"Today, having a clear faith based on the Creed of the Church is often labeled as fundamentalism. Whereas relativism, that is, letting oneself be 'tossed here and there, carried about by every wind of doctrine', seems the only attitude that can cope with modern times. We are building a dictatorship of relativism that does not recognize anything as definitive and whose ultimate goal consists solely of one's own ego and desires."

So, my first proposal for discussion to Catholics is, if we are living in a "dictatorship of relativism," what is the alternative? I would argue that we are living in a world that has been in progress for 500 years, what we broadly call "modernity." The popular Catholic worldview is theoretical medievalism, and that worldview often (not always) fails to live in historical reality. Catholics often (not always) are in a flight from reality, and this is not unique to Catholicism but Christianity in general.

We all live in societies built on many different historical contradictions. So, for example, you have American Catholics who live comfortably and proudly in a country that, historically, was born out of a revolt from everything which Catholicism stands for. The basis of this country, and of modernity more generally, is an individualism which destroys historical continuity; in capitalism this is known as "creative destruction," the constant drive for decentralization and innovation. Many Catholics recognize this and retreat into traditionalism which is further removed from historical reality, similar to end-times fundamentalists in Protestantism.

But the focus of these opening thoughts is on this idea of a "dictatorship of relativism." This idea has a certain ring of truth to it, and yet, what is the alternative? Theocracy as in Iran? White nationalist populism/fundamentalism as in Trump's America? etc. What Ratzinger calls a dictatorship of relativism is, in a historical context, simply the free market in all its glory, with no centralized direction in history, but everyone competing in a sort of miniature historical process, where the only thing we hold in common is material interest, the need to be productive in nature. I don't know that Catholics have an alternative that actually works in reality, though I sympathize with many of their concerns.

I'll leave it there, feel free to pick up the discussion from any angle that interests you, this is not meant to be a linear discussion.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Era Might

[Peace]

44 minutes ago, Era Might said:

So, my first proposal for discussion to Catholics is, if we are living in a "dictatorship of relativism," what is the alternative?

The alternative is to recognize that there is objective truth and to seek to live according to it.

44 minutes ago, Era Might said:

I would argue that we are living in a world that has been in progress for 500 years, what we broadly call "modernity."

Much of that progress is due to the Catholic Church, and all progress is ultimately by the grace of God.

44 minutes ago, Era Might said:

The popular Catholic worldview is theoretical medievalism,

False.

44 minutes ago, Era Might said:

and that worldview often (not always) fails to live in historical reality. Catholics often (not always) are in a flight from reality, and this is not unique to Catholicism but Christianity in general.

No, it is the atheists and others who deny the truth, which is the Catholic faith, and who fail to live in this reality and flee from their obligations towards God and man. Hopefully they will choose to live according to truth, before it is too late.

44 minutes ago, Era Might said:

We all live in societies built on many different historical contradictions. So, for example, you have American Catholics who live comfortably and proudly in a country that, historically, was born out of a revolt from everything which Catholicism stands for. The basis of this country, and of modernity more generally, is an individualism which destroys historical continuity; in capitalism this is known as "creative destruction," the constant drive for decentralization and innovation. Many Catholics recognize this and retreat into traditionalism which is further removed from historical reality, similar to end-times fundamentalists in Protestantism.

Perhaps, but here you would need to define "traditionalism". That terms means different things to different people.

44 minutes ago, Era Might said:

But the focus of these opening thoughts is on this idea of a "dictatorship of relativism." This idea has a certain ring of truth to it, and yet, what is the alternative? Theocracy as in Iran? White nationalist populism/fundamentalism as in Trump's America? etc.

Again, the alternative is to recognize that there is objective truth and to seek to live according to it.

44 minutes ago, Era Might said:

What Ratzinger calls a dictatorship of relativism is, in a historical context, simply the free market in all its glory, with no centralized direction in history, but everyone competing in a sort of miniature historical process, where the only thing we hold in common is material interest, the need to be productive in nature. I don't know that Catholics have an alternative that actually works in reality, though I sympathize with many of their concerns.

No, the free market does not presuppose that there is no such thing as objective truth. The free market is not an implementation of relativism. Free-market mechanisms are oriented toward discovering truth through decentralizing decision making, wherein the people responsible for making decisions suffer the consequences for their mistakes, and reap the benefits when they are correct, and are thus incentivized to make correct decisions.

 

[Era Might]

For everyone else: I've ignored Peace and all his posts, I can't see them anymore, please use his posts as an example of what this thread is NOT meant to be, and please don't follow him down his rabbit holes. Thanks.

[Ice_nine]

29 minutes ago, Era Might said:

For everyone else: I've ignored Peace and all his posts, I can't see them anymore, please use his posts as an example of what this thread is NOT meant to be, and please don't follow him down his rabbit holes. Thanks.

"I can't see his posts but I know what he said."

That would've made about as much sense.

[Era Might]

1 minute ago, Ice_nine said:

"I can't see his posts but I know what he said."

That would've made about as much sense.

Huh?

I don't know what he said and I don't care what he said. I don't like him and I don't want to deal with him.

If you want to do a bullet by bullet debate, go to the debate phorum and start your thread. If you can't have a grown people conversation and take the time to discuss, then this isn't the thread for you.

If you're not interested in the purpose of this thread, which is to actually have a conversation about things, then ignore it.

[Peace]

3 minutes ago, Era Might said:

Huh?

I don't know what he said and I don't care what he said. I don't like him and I don't want to deal with him.

If you want to do a bullet by bullet debate, go to the debate phorum and start your thread. If you can't have a grown people conversation and take the time to discuss, then this isn't the thread for you.

If you're not interested in the purpose of this thread, which is to actually have a conversation about things, then ignore it.

Oh please Era. How childish are you? You know and everyone else knows plenty well that you are reading my posts.

You wrote that Catholics in this thread should expect to be challenged. Well, you should expect to have your error challenged and corrected as well.

You wrote error. I corrected them, and I will keep on doing so as long as I please. Grow a set and get over it.

[Ice_nine]

You said not to follow him down his rabbit holes. How do you know there are rabbit holes to even go down?

Good luck finding what you're looking for. I don't often know what on earth you're trying to get at. Your posts seem almost purposefully opaque at times. At other times you make claims that seem to have no basis in the real world outside of whatever ivory tower you're sitting in.

Maybe I am not intellectual enough. That used to bother me. Used to want to be one of the smart and sophisticated ones. Now it doesn't seem worth it to me.

[Era Might]

Just now, Ice_nine said:

You said not to follow him down his rabbit holes. How do you know there are rabbit holes to even go down?

Good luck finding what you're looking for. I don't often know what on earth you're trying to get at. Your posts seem almost purposefully opaque at times. At other times you make claims that seem to have no basis in the real world outside of whatever ivory tower you're sitting in.

Maybe I am not intellectual enough. That used to bother me. Used to want to be one of the smart and sophisticated ones. Now it doesn't seem worth it to me.

Thanks, sounds like this isn't the thread for you. Take care.

[Ice_nine]

1 minute ago, Era Might said:

Thanks, sounds like this isn't the thread for you. Take care.

I think you're overestimating the control you have over this. It kinda seems like a kid is trying to start a club that no one really wants to be in and starts whinging when the only people that show up don't fit his vision. 

I'm only here to poke and prod and have a little bit of fun.

[Peace]

3 minutes ago, Ice_nine said:

I think you're overestimating the control you have over this. It kinda seems like a kid is trying to start a club that no one really wants to be in and starts whinging when the only people that show up don't fit his vision. 

I'm only here to poke and prod and have a little bit of fun.

He just wants to bloviate, feed his ego, and attack the Catholic Church. I think that should be obvious by now. Whenever he tries to do this I call him out on this BS and refute him. Then he cries like a child and says "I was just hoping to have a nice discussion" because he can't offer a substantive response to my critique. It's ridiculous.

[Ice_nine]

well we all like to feed our ego from time to time. I've been asking God to cleave my pride away from me. It's probably gonna take a lil bit.

[Era Might]

1 minute ago, Ice_nine said:

I think you're overestimating the control you have over this. It kinda seems like a kid is trying to start a club that no one really wants to be in and starts whinging when the only people that show up don't fit his vision. 

I'm only here to poke and prod and have a little bit of fun.

Nobody is whining. If you're not interested in the thread, then go to another one. This is a phorum. I started a thread for discussion. Some of us like discussing things. If that's not your thing, then please don't waste my time telling me how much of a stupid loser I am, or try to derail the thread because you're not interested in it. If nobody is interested then it will die away. @dUSt said in a recent post that Phatmass is a place for discussion, so I took him up on that. Please respect my thread, there's a whole phorum for you and your clique to talk about whatever you want to talk about.

[Peace]

2 minutes ago, Ice_nine said:

well we all like to feed our ego from time to time.

This is true. I would say for me, feeding my anger is the main culprit.

2 minutes ago, Era Might said:

Nobody is whining.

You are delusional.

Your third post is practically the definition of whining: "Please nobody read what Peace wrote because he refuted my nonsense."

[Era Might]

Getting back to the discussion of the thread, I'd like to add to my OP a more recent exhortation of the church, not merely to engage in inter-religious dialogue, but to find the common basis of all humanity which comes before religion. In traditional theology this was regarded as the covenants of Noah or Abraham, a universal covenant between God and all peoples regardless of religion. This is the purpose of discussion and dialogue, I think. As I asked in my OP, are we brothers or enemies in the 21st century, and if brothers, what is the basis of this brotherhood, divided as we are by borders, languages, races, religions, wealth, class, etc.? I'll add here a passage from Pope Francis' recent Encyclical which doesn't shy away from provoking these direct conversations:

LACKING A PLAN FOR EVERYONE

15. The best way to dominate and gain control over people is to spread despair and discouragement, even under the guise of defending certain values. Today, in many countries, hyperbole, extremism and polarization have become political tools. Employing a strategy of ridicule, suspicion and relentless criticism, in a variety of ways one denies the right of others to exist or to have an opinion. Their share of the truth and their values are rejected and, as a result, the life of society is impoverished and subjected to the hubris of the powerful. Political life no longer has to do with healthy debates about long-term plans to improve people’s lives and to advance the common good, but only with slick marketing techniques primarily aimed at discrediting others. In this craven exchange of charges and counter-charges, debate degenerates into a permanent state of disagreement and confrontation.

16. Amid the fray of conflicting interests, where victory consists in eliminating one’s opponents, how is it possible to raise our sights to recognize our neighbours or to help those who have fallen along the way? A plan that would set great goals for the development of our entire human family nowadays sounds like madness. We are growing ever more distant from one another, while the slow and demanding march towards an increasingly united and just world is suffering a new and dramatic setback.

17. To care for the world in which we live means to care for ourselves. Yet we need to think of ourselves more and more as a single family dwelling in a common home. Such care does not interest those economic powers that demand quick profits. Often the voices raised in defence of the environment are silenced or ridiculed, using apparently reasonable arguments that are merely a screen for special interests. In this shallow, short-sighted culture that we have created, bereft of a shared vision, “it is foreseeable that, once certain resources have been depleted, the scene will be set for new wars, albeit under the guise of noble claims”.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Era Might

[Clean Water]

2 hours ago, Era Might said:

So, my first proposal for discussion to Catholics is, if we are living in a "dictatorship of relativism," what is the alternative? I would argue that we are living in a world that has been in progress for 500 years, what we broadly call "modernity." The popular Catholic worldview is theoretical medievalism, and that worldview often (not always) fails to live in historical reality. Catholics often (not always) are in a flight from reality, and this is not unique to Catholicism but Christianity in general.

We all live in societies built on many different historical contradictions. So, for example, you have American Catholics who live comfortably and proudly in a country that, historically, was born out of a revolt from everything which Catholicism stands for. The basis of this country, and of modernity more generally, is an individualism which destroys historical continuity; in capitalism this is known as "creative destruction," the constant drive for decentralization and innovation. Many Catholics recognize this and retreat into traditionalism which is further removed from historical reality, similar to end-times fundamentalists in Protestantism.

Peace be with you Era Might. 57 years ago Blacks couldn't drink out of the same water fountain. That's not long ago. It wasn't until 1979 that US Bishops publically said racism was sinful. In 1999 Pope JPll made anti-racist comments in St. Louis and a monsignor on EWTN said, "This goes to show how ill- served the Holy Father is by his advisors because racism is no longer an issue in the United States." It's in Fr. Massingale's new book, "Racial Justice and the Catholic Church". There were never the good old days. Papal Bulls that gave Columbus authority to do what he did basically said Black and Indians weren't human. It gave permission to enslave them. And now because I have an accurate version of history I'm considered "woke" and will be looked down on trad sites like phatmass but it's all good. I'm not claiming things are perfect now. We murder babies thanks to Republicans passing Roe V Wade and failing to over turn it in the 90's when they could of. Trump could of gave a fatal blow to Planned Parenthood with an executive order but never did. Trads want to go back to the glory days when Blacks couldn't drink out of the same water fountain and women had no rights. Guys like Matt Fradd lead the charge and promote white supremacists like Timothy Gordon who says publically, "God bless the proud boys" "Ahmaud Arbery was murdered by vilgilante justice" and "Amy Barrett is scum for crying with her Black daughter when George Floyd died" You have Bishop Strickland attending the Jericho March trying to suppress Black votes and yesterday tweeting that "racism is bad but the real problem is athesism" Like it wasn't believers who embraced white supremacy and kept slaves. Dylan Roof was a believer and went into the Black Church and murdered all those people. That's my rant. Not sure how well it sticks to the points made in the text I quoted. But as a Catholic I have little patience for the trad movement or its advocates. Or even those who don't necessarily embrace it but don't call out the obvious toxic racism and hate that's attached to it. A trad site like phatmass which embraces hip hop had an article on the front page the other day attacking Amanda Gorman. Amanda is a Black Catholic and performed her poetry at the Biden inauguration. She attends an all Black Parish. The article ridiculed her poetry and even said its a letdown for Catholics that she's in the Church. So even though Phatmass embraces hip hop it's still a trad site and pushes the narrative Amanda is better not in the Church. Sure under the articles it says "may not represent our opinion at Phatmass" but then there's articles from EWTN which fired Black Catholic Gloria Purvis with no explanation when she spoke up last summer. While Raymond Arroyo is on Fox defending confederate monuments and a year earlier making jokes about the murder of Nipsey Hussle the day it happened on the Angle on Fox. Era Might I appreciate your focus on Christianity in Africa. Lecrae has spoke on it a lot lately in the last year. It's part of his theme on how he lost his religion but found his faith. I personally became great friends/brothers with a couple guys from Uganda. Both are Pastors and live humble lives. No plumbing ect We have been helping get people clean water. I appreciate the over 2000 years of Catholicism. It's a spiritual experience when I attend Mass sitting in the back pew knowing how wretched of a man I am. The Sacraments are real and I've encountered the super natural through them. When you study Jesus and how he dealt with the religious it's no surprise that things are the way they are still today. And how Jesus views it. He loves everyone though and it's the Father's will that all men be saved. I guess we can hope especially with Purgatory which can be just like hell but with the ability to learn and one day emerge your most high self and a god. And if a bunch of people end up in hell then that's a fact of life we must accept. But take to heart what Jesus spoke about the final judgement. Trads can do all the rituals perfectly and attack Black Catholic Amanda Gorman and say she shouldn't be in the Church. But if they didn't help the poor or love their brothers and sisters according to Christ they may be in trouble. But like when Rush just died I said 3 Hail Mary's for him. Not because I'm so good but I hope people who can't stand me will say a prayer that I make it to Heaven at my death as well.

 

[chrysostom]

3 hours ago, Era Might said:

For everyone else: I've ignored Peace and all his posts, I can't see them anymore, please use his posts as an example of what this thread is NOT meant to be, and please don't follow him down his rabbit holes. Thanks.

If you ignore the only person who actually put in effort to compose replies back, I'm not sure if this is going to be interesting at all.

[Era Might]

2 hours ago, Clean Water said:

Peace be with you Era Might. 57 years ago Blacks couldn't drink out of the same water fountain. That's not long ago. It wasn't until 1979 that US Bishops publically said racism was sinful. In 1999 Pope JPll made anti-racist comments in St. Louis and a monsignor on EWTN said, "This goes to show how ill- served the Holy Father is by his advisors because racism is no longer an issue in the United States." It's in Fr. Massingale's new book, "Racial Justice and the Catholic Church". There were never the good old days. Papal Bulls that gave Columbus authority to do what he did basically said Black and Indians weren't human. It gave permission to enslave them. And now because I have an accurate version of history I'm considered "woke" and will be looked down on trad sites like phatmass but it's all good. I'm not claiming things are perfect now. We murder babies thanks to Republicans passing Roe V Wade and failing to over turn it in the 90's when they could of. Trump could of gave a fatal blow to Planned Parenthood with an executive order but never did. Trads want to go back to the glory days when Blacks couldn't drink out of the same water fountain and women had no rights. Guys like Matt Fradd lead the charge and promote white supremacists like Timothy Gordon who says publically, "God bless the proud boys" "Ahmaud Arbery was murdered by vilgilante justice" and "Amy Barrett is scum for crying with her Black daughter when George Floyd died" You have Bishop Strickland attending the Jericho March trying to suppress Black votes and yesterday tweeting that "racism is bad but the real problem is athesism" Like it wasn't believers who embraced white supremacy and kept slaves. Dylan Roof was a believer and went into the Black Church and murdered all those people. That's my rant. Not sure how well it sticks to the points made in the text I quoted. But as a Catholic I have little patience for the trad movement or its advocates. Or even those who don't necessarily embrace it but don't call out the obvious toxic racism and hate that's attached to it. A trad site like phatmass which embraces hip hop had an article on the front page the other day attacking Amanda Gorman. Amanda is a Black Catholic and performed her poetry at the Biden inauguration. She attends an all Black Parish. The article ridiculed her poetry and even said its a letdown for Catholics that she's in the Church. So even though Phatmass embraces hip hop it's still a trad site and pushes the narrative Amanda is better not in the Church. Sure under the articles it says "may not represent our opinion at Phatmass" but then there's articles from EWTN which fired Black Catholic Gloria Purvis with no explanation when she spoke up last summer. While Raymond Arroyo is on Fox defending confederate monuments and a year earlier making jokes about the murder of Nipsey Hussle the day it happened on the Angle on Fox. Era Might I appreciate your focus on Christianity in Africa. Lecrae has spoke on it a lot lately in the last year. It's part of his theme on how he lost his religion but found his faith. I personally became great friends/brothers with a couple guys from Uganda. Both are Pastors and live humble lives. No plumbing ect We have been helping get people clean water. I appreciate the over 2000 years of Catholicism. It's a spiritual experience when I attend Mass sitting in the back pew knowing how wretched of a man I am. The Sacraments are real and I've encountered the super natural through them. When you study Jesus and how he dealt with the religious it's no surprise that things are the way they are still today. And how Jesus views it. He loves everyone though and it's the Father's will that all men be saved. I guess we can hope especially with Purgatory which can be just like hell but with the ability to learn and one day emerge your most high self and a god. And if a bunch of people end up in hell then that's a fact of life we must accept. But take to heart what Jesus spoke about the final judgement. Trads can do all the rituals perfectly and attack Black Catholic Amanda Gorman and say she shouldn't be in the Church. But if they didn't help the poor or love their brothers and sisters according to Christ they may be in trouble. But like when Rush just died I said 3 Hail Mary's for him. Not because I'm so good but I hope people who can't stand me will say a prayer that I make it to Heaven at my death as well.

Thanks for the great and honest thoughts!

I understand well the “sociology” of Catholicism that you’re talking about. I’ve experienced Catholicism in many different social contexts. I remember joining a men’s group which had a series of talks by different guest speakers. They were all friendly people, but they were all middle class, suburban white men, including the priests who gave the talks, and that was the lens through which they saw the world. Parishes reflect the communities that create (and fund) them. But I’ve seen Catholicism in other, very different contexts as well. I used to eat every day at a Missionaries of Charity soup kitchen which served the unwashed masses of homeless, mostly black and brown men, and many women. The Sisters would give little classes on the weekends to discuss spiritual topics. Before every meal they would read a Gospel and give a short reflection and prayer...sometimes the men would get restless and tell them to hurry it up lol, but usually everyone listened respectfully and was glad to get it out of the way to eat! The sisters usually served some slop made of spaghetti and who knows what, but sometimes we would get fried chicken or some other specialty. The Sisters themselves were very diverse, some from India, some from Latin America. Looking back I think they had a little too much of the death cult about them, always dwelling on suffering, what the homeless men needed to hear was life and strength and joy, but overall I remember the Sisters positively and fondly. There was a laywoman there who had given up a high-powered career in New York and dedicated her life to serving the poor alongside the Sisters, a sort of Dorothy Day. She would usually be the one to go around and talk to people and get to know them. This was another side of Catholicism, not merely in the sense of the diversity of people there, but also in their life experiences and the ways of seeing and speaking about Catholicism, very different from a suburban parish where, unless you're a typical suburban family person, you probably won't have much in common with the people there.

Little known fact: Marcus Garvey was a Roman Catholic. He was a Jamaican leader who founded the Universal Negro Improvement Association (UNIA) after WWI in Harlem and throughout the United States and Caribbean. In my opinion, he is the greatest man in American history, alongside John Brown, the great abolitionist who started the Civil War with his attack on a military fort as he tried to spark a slave rebellion. They were the greatest not just for what they did, but because they were truly righteous men, men motivated by a zeal for God and true, universal human brotherhood. Marcus Garvey’s motto was “One God! One Aim! One Destiny!” Here is a great passage from The Philosophy & Opinions of Marcus Garvey, a book you should read ASAP if you want to be truly “woke” as you say:

“If the great statesmen and religious leaders of the world would only forget the selfishness of their own races, and call their conferences and give out their edicts not from the Anglo-Saxon, Teutonic, Celtic or Anglo-American point of view, but from the view of all humanity considered, then we would indeed come face to face with a new world evolving a new civilization.

Friends, white cannot prosper to the disadvantage of black. Yellow cannot prosper to the disadvantage of brown, for in so doing we but pile up confusion and remorse for our children. This is history; it tells the tales of the past, it will of the future. Then why not make the future right?

Few the reformers are who struggle for such an ideal. Here and there a white man and a woman, a yellow, brown and black man, while the great army of selfish pleasure-seekers and their slaves march on to their doom. Gandhi in prison, a George V. in his castle; a Congo native massacred; an Albert of Belgium drinking his wine; a Senegalese Negro kicked on the plantation of his master; a Poincare driving in his landau in the Champs d’Elysees; a Negro lynched in Georgia; a Wilson, Harding or Coolidge talking about a world court or league; a Chinaman shot down at Kia Chow and the Emperor of Japan drinking tea in his palace at Tokio; a Jew murdered on the borders of Eastern Europe, and His Holiness the Pope seeing no further than the Vatican, will not save the human race. But that lonely man or woman, of whatsoever race, who cries out for justice to all humanity, including Europe with its whites, Asia with its browns and yellows, Africa with its blacks, and America and the rest of the world with their mixed populations, will, even though there be persecution and injustice done to him, bring succor and aid, late though it be, to the rest of us mortals that we may see everlasting life.”

Also, here is a song about Marcus Garvey that you might like:

Marcus Garvey’s dream was truly “Catholic” (i.e., Universal), not in the sense of praying rosaries but in the sense of creating a true universal brotherhood of man, not just in words and theory, but in reality. He based his philosophy on the doctrine of Imago Dei, that all men are created in the Image of God and are equal brothers under one Father. His great dream was see Africa rise and achieve what white men had achieved in the United States, which he admired greatly as a modern nation that stood as a beacon for freedom.

Garvey said that religion is fundamental, that every man has his own religion and there’s no point in arguing about religion. He didn’t say this because he believed in a “dictatorship of relativism.” Just the opposite, he believed that first we must be human, we must be brothers, we must acknowledge one God who knows no distinctions and shows no partiality, and only then can we discuss the “higher things” of God. Here’s what Garvey said:

“I unequivocally rejected the racist assumption of much white American Christianity. Namely, that God had created the Black man inferior, and that he'd intended Negroes to be a servant class, heavers of wood and drawers of water. Well, I predicated my view of man on the Doctrine of Imago Dei, "All men, regardless of color, are created in the image of God".

Now, from this premise comes the equality of all men and brotherhood of all men. The Biblical injunction of Acts 17:26 reminds us that he created, of one blood, all nations of men to dwell on the face of the earth, and is most interested in brotherhood within his own race. Because if Negroes are created in God's image, and Negroes are Black, then God must, in some sense, be Black!

If the white man has the idea of a white God, let him worship his God as he desires. If the yellow man’s God is of his race let him worship his God as he sees fit. We, as Negroes, have found a new ideal. Whilst our God has no color, yet it is human to see everything through one’s own spectacles, and since the white people have seen their God through white spectacles, we have only now started out (late though it be) to see our God through our own spectacles. We Negroes believe in the God of Ethiopia, the everlasting God—God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, the One God of all ages. That is the God in whom we believe, but we shall worship Him through the spectacles of Ethiopia.”

America is a very racially segregated society. I’ve seen this country inside and out, from the ghettos of the south and west to the depressing poverty of native peoples in the southwest to the colonized island of Hawaii. This country is undergoing an historical reckoning because white people in this country are waking up to a new world, and they don’t know who they are anymore or how to adjust to a world where they are not supreme by divine right. The world today needs a new language of unity and solidarity, because the old languages of nation and religion and class are failing us, though we don't have to abandon them completely, we just need to understand what they can do for us today.

The Emperor of Ethiopia, Haile Selassie I, had this to say in 1963, and I think it is the greatest vision of unity we will ever hear, if we have ears to hear:

”When I spoke at Geneva in 1936, there was no precedent for a head of state addressing the League of Nations. I am neither the first, nor will I be the last head of state to address the United Nations, but only I have addressed both the League and this Organization in this capacity. The problems which confront us today are, equally, unprecedented. They have no counterparts in human experience. Men search the pages of history for solutions, for precedents, but there are none. This, then, is the ultimate challenge. Where are we to look for our survival, for the answers to the questions which have never before been posed? We must look, first, to Almighty God, Who has raised man above the animals and endowed him with intelligence and reason. We must put our faith in Him, that He will not desert us or permit us to destroy humanity which He created in His image. And we must look into ourselves, into the depth of our souls. We must become something we have never been and for which our education and experience and environment have ill-prepared us. We must become bigger than we have been: more courageous, greater in spirit, larger in outlook. We must become members of a new race, overcoming petty prejudice, owing our ultimate allegiance not to nations but to our fellow men within the human community."

[Clean Water]

1 hour ago, Era Might said:

I understand well the “sociology” of Catholicism that you’re talking about. I’ve experienced Catholicism in many different social contexts. I remember joining a men’s group which had a series of talks by different guest speakers. They were all friendly people, but they were all middle class, suburban white men, including the priests who gave the talks, and that was the lens through which they saw the world. Parishes reflect the communities that create (and fund) them.

Yeah exactly. And to be clear God bless the group you described above. The fact they were friendly is a great thing. You can't blame people for seeing the world through the lens they see it. Until the Holy Spirit prompts them to expand their view. And only God knows when that time is for every person and whether they accept or reject the invitation to see the experience of others they hadn't previously considered. Pope Francis has prompted this and a lot of folks have ignored him and written him off. So much hate was thrown his way by Conservative Catholics when he invited NBA players to the Vatican for Black Lives Matter discussions. Reading the comments on Catholic Connect (a big Catholic IG page) was sad. It was comment after comment of contempt and hate for the Holy Father and the players discussing this issue at the Vatican. Same thing when he accepted the Hawks Jersey for Martin Luther King Jr birthday and standing with Black Lives Matter.

 

1 hour ago, Era Might said:

But I’ve seen Catholicism in other, very different contexts as well. I used to eat every day at a Missionaries of Charity soup kitchen which served the unwashed masses of homeless, mostly black and brown men, and many women. The Sisters would give little classes on the weekends to discuss spiritual topics. Before every meal they would read a Gospel and give a short reflection and prayer...sometimes the men would get restless and tell them to hurry it up lol, but usually everyone listened respectfully and was glad to get it out of the way to eat! The sisters usually served some slop made of spaghetti and who knows what, but sometimes we would get fried chicken or some other specialty. The Sisters themselves were very diverse, some from India, some from Latin America. Looking back I think they had a little too much of the death cult about them, always dwelling on suffering, what the homeless men needed to hear was life and strength and joy, but overall I remember the Sisters positively and fondly. There was a laywoman there who had given up a high-powered career in New York and dedicated her life to serving the poor alongside the Sisters, a sort of Dorothy Day. She would usually be the one to go around and talk to people and get to know them. This was another side of Catholicism, not merely in the sense of the diversity of people there, but also in their life experiences and the ways of seeing and speaking about Catholicism, very different from a suburban parish where, unless you're a typical suburban family person, you probably won't have much in common with the people there

I've been seeing Catholicism in other contexts as well. I started following Black Catholics (that's the page) on IG. The handle is @blatholics. Also @blackcatholicmessenger is another great page. A bunch of knowledge and history shared on these pages. Theconservative/trad/racismdoesn't existcrowd-media is so loud and dominating that it drowns out most of the other views and experiences. But the other views are out there you just have to find them and make sure you're not sucked completely into the previous. I've found a bunch of IG pages in the last year of Black Catholics shareing their truth and experiences. It's been great. Also a lot of amesome female accounts (White and Black) who aren't sucked into maga Catholicism and have a lot of truth to offer. Truths about abortion and healthcare ect. Truths on how the Church in 2018 is still making Saints of women who were murdered and saying they're Saints of Purity. And how offensive it is to women and how bad it is for a Church who has lost it's moral credibility. As if sexual victims who don't die are less holy or they are somehow to blame for their experience. And as if women can't tell the difference between rape and sexual temptation. And that rape would somehow have anything to do with if a woman is still a virgin. Here's the article: www.commonwealthmagazine.org/her-too

 

1 hour ago, Era Might said:

Little known fact: Marcus Garvey was a Roman Catholic. He was a Jamaican leader who founded the Universal Negro Improvement Association (UNIA) after WWI in Harlem and throughout the United States and Caribbean. In my opinion, he is the greatest man in American history, alongside John Brown, the great abolitionist who started the Civil War with his attack on a military fort as he tried to spark a slave rebellion. They were the greatest not just for what they did, but because they were truly righteous men, men motivated by a zeal for God and true, universal human brotherhood. Marcus Garvey’s motto was “One God! One Aim! One Destiny!” Here is a great passage from The Philosophy & Opinions of Marcus Garvey, a book you should read ASAP if you want to be truly “woke” as you say:

“If the great statesmen and religious leaders of the world would only forget the selfishness of their own races, and call their conferences and give out their edicts not from the Anglo-Saxon, Teutonic, Celtic or Anglo-American point of view, but from the view of all humanity considered, then we would indeed come face to face with a new world evolving a new civilization.

Friends, white cannot prosper to the disadvantage of black. Yellow cannot prosper to the disadvantage of brown, for in so doing we but pile up confusion and remorse for our children. This is history; it tells the tales of the past, it will of the future. Then why not make the future right?

Few the reformers are who struggle for such an ideal. Here and there a white man and a woman, a yellow, brown and black man, while the great army of selfish pleasure-seekers and their slaves march on to their doom. Gandhi in prison, a George V. in his castle; a Congo native massacred; an Albert of Belgium drinking his wine; a Senegalese Negro kicked on the plantation of his master; a Poincare driving in his landau in the Champs d’Elysees; a Negro lynched in Georgia; a Wilson, Harding or Coolidge talking about a world court or league; a Chinaman shot down at Kia Chow and the Emperor of Japan drinking tea in his palace at Tokio; a Jew murdered on the borders of Eastern Europe, and His Holiness the Pope seeing no further than the Vatican, will not save the human race. But that lonely man or woman, of whatsoever race, who cries out for justice to all humanity, including Europe with its whites, Asia with its browns and yellows, Africa with its blacks, and America and the rest of the world with their mixed populations, will, even though there be persecution and injustice done to him, bring succor and aid, late though it be, to the rest of us mortals that we may see everlasting life.”

There's so many great Black Catholics. I've been glad to learn how many more there are then I imagined. God bless Mr. Garvey. Thanks for the book recommendation, "The Philosophy & Opinions of Marcus Garvey". I need to read it. Being "truly woke" as you say is frowned upon. Just the other day Bishop Barron went on about it on Twitter. One great comment was from a Black Catholic named Nate. He used to write for Word On Fire but last summer his article was rejected by Barron and not allowed to be published. Here's what he said, "Back when Word On Fire declined a blog of mine basically for mentioning Trump and the Trads undersirable "flashpoints", to quote the editor....I realized there is a  problem. The modern Catholic apologetics movement has the same awareness issues as any other White American zeitgeist. It's telling that two major talking points of American Catholicism were off-limits to me a Black Catholic but Barron has free reign to pontificate on the Black Liberation movement with apparently NO meaningful knowledge of who's on the ground and why."

 

1 hour ago, Era Might said:

"I unequivocally rejected the racist assumption of much white American Christianity. Namely, that God had created the Black man inferior, and that he'd intended Negroes to be a servant class, heavers of wood and drawers of water. Well, I predicated my view of man on the Doctrine of Imago Dei, "All men, regardless of color, are created in the image of God".

Now, from this premise comes the equality of all men and brotherhood of all men. The Biblical injunction of Acts 17:26 reminds us that he created, of one blood, all nations of men to dwell on the face of the earth, and is most interested in brotherhood within his own race. Because if Negroes are created in God's image, and Negroes are Black, then God must, in some sense, be Black!

If the white man has the idea of a white God, let him worship his God as he desires. If the yellow man’s God is of his race let him worship his God as he sees fit. We, as Negroes, have found a new ideal. Whilst our God has no color, yet it is human to see everything through one’s own spectacles, and since the white people have seen their God through white spectacles, we have only now started out (late though it be) to see our God through our own spectacles. We Negroes believe in the God of Ethiopia, the everlasting God—God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, the One God of all ages. That is the God in whom we believe, but we shall worship Him through the spectacles of Ethiopia.”

Gloria Purvis who was fired by EWTN for speaking up against racism had a great post. Here's what she said, 

“Researchers at {Stanford} examined how American Christians articulate their image of God. They arrived at a startling finding with significant social implications. They discovered that when people view God as a white man, they also are more likely to believe that white men are better suited for positions of leadership and authority than women or Black people. The chief researcher, psychologist Steven Roberts, summarized the major conclusion of his team’s studies: ‘Basically, if you believe that a white man rules the heavens, you are more likely to believe that white men should rule on Earth.’” - U.S. Catholic magazine

Could our icons help dispel racist attitudes? How would your parish respond to a crucifix with a Christ that is Black?

I hear a variation of this sentiment expressed on these signs whenever I share Black images of Jesus or and Mary etc.....

This is a picture of protestors of Bishop Harold Perry, the 1st publicly recognized Black Bishop ordained in the U.S., in NOLA in 1965.

(I can't post pictures but it's a picture of White Catholics holding up signs that says Jesus Did Not Choose Non White Apostles.)

[chrysostom]

6 minutes ago, Clean Water said:

Truths about abortion and healthcare ect.

What are some of those?