What Makes Music Sacred?

[picchick]

More stuff on sacred music. This is not a Catholic site but it talks about Sacred Music. It provides a definition that we may be able to debate on.

[quote]The first person to define sacred music was Augustine, who declared: "Do you know what hymns are? Hymns are praises that are sung to God. If you praise God without singing, then your praise is not a hymn; if you sing to God without praise, then your singing is not a hymn either; and if you sing praise that is, however, not dedicated to God, your singing is not a hymn either." From this exclusive definition, we gather that sacred music (including hymns) has to fulfil three criteria to match the definition: the object of sacred music is God, the singer has to have a praising heart, and finally, this praise finds its expression in a song, which is an external activity to express this internal praise.[/quote]


"Singing is praying twice."

[url="http://www.amityfoundation.org/ANS/Articles/ans2004/ans2004.6/2004_6_7.htm"]Source of quote[/url]

Also, Catholicguy, if the Gregorian Chant is the only thing considered as sacred music, what do you consider the different Masses? For example the Mass in G with the Gloria, Credo, Sanctus and Lamb of God.

[catholicguy]

When you say "in G", are you speaking of musical variations on the notes for Mass? There are several Kyries, several Glorias, four Credos (I am not sure how many different variations of the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei there are). What do you mean by this? I simply said that Gregorian Chant is the music of the Church and is the only music we can definitely say is sacred. Gregorian Chant is still sung on a musical scale, so you can sing all of these parts of the Mass on a different note in Gregorian Chant, but I assume that you are talking about Sacred Polyphony. This type of music is also sanctioned by the Church and can be considered sacred; however, it is not permitted for all parts of Mass (the Introit, Offertory, and any part of the Mass sung exclusively by the Schola is to be done in Gregorian Chant). By the way, speaking of "sacred" music, something interesting was brought to my attention recently. The song "Here I am (Lord)" is done to the notes of the Brady Bunch song. If you take the second part of the Brady Bunch music from "And the one day when this lady met this fellow, and they knew that it was much more than a hunch...", this music is used (apparently, to the very note) in "Here I am (Lord)", a modern 'hymn', but the notes have all been lengthened. Think in your head. "Here I am, Lord. Is it I, Lord? I have heard you calling in the night..." and the Brady Bunch tune "Dun dun dun (etc, etc) dun duna-na". This is the same music. The "Here I am (Lord)" 'hymn' stole a television series tune for its music. Is this really sacred?

Edit: by the way, to the original author, it kind of seems like you are just wanting to be affirmed in what you already think (or practice) because you say that somone who disagrees with you should not post, regardless of his points made, simply because he disagrees with you. The important thing is to recognize that there is such a thing as sacred music, and the Church has yet to approve of "modern" music for Mass. In fact, Pope Pius X forbid the use of even a piano. God bless.

Edited July 16, 2004 by catholicguy

[carrdero]

Here is an interesting Q&A that I came across that might be helpful. Keep in mind it is also impossible to offend GOD.

Is there any bad music? I mean, are there any particular types of music that are harmful?

No. ALL music is Universal. There is not a sound or voice nor lyric that is offensive. You can choose what you finally listen to, but there is no danger in listening to any types of music. There is no such thing as music BEIng "off key," either through musical articulation or through lyrical content. EveryONE it seems must follow this twelve tone system in your society to create music with different instruments and the possibility of combining words and phrases (human-made words and phrases) to create messages cannot move any individual to what your society would deem “negative” tendencies. It is ALL a matter of choice to the individual. Only you can choose what you want to do and don't want to do, what you choose to listen to and what not to listen to.

[catholicguy]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Jul 28 2004, 10:16 AM'] Here is an interesting Q&A that I came across that might be helpful. Keep in mind it is also impossible to offend GOD.

Is there any bad music? I mean, are there any particular types of music that are harmful?

No. ALL music is Universal. There is not a sound or voice nor lyric that is offensive. You can choose what you finally listen to, but there is no danger in listening to any types of music. There is no such thing as music BEIng "off key," either through musical articulation or through lyrical content. EveryONE it seems must follow this twelve tone system in your society to create music with different instruments and the possibility of combining words and phrases (human-made words and phrases) to create messages cannot move any individual to what your society would deem “negative” tendencies. It is ALL a matter of choice to the individual. Only you can choose what you want to do and don't want to do, what you choose to listen to and what not to listen to. [/quote]
OK basically what you just said is there is no such thing as objective right and wrong, and anyone can do whatever he wants, however he wants, whenever he wants, just for the simple reason that he wants to. Nothing in your post made an argument. You merely stated your heretical belief that there is no such thing as objective truth... furthermore, "it is also impossible to offend God"...what? where does that come from? The Catechism of the Council of Trent states that all non-Catholic "worship" is refused by God--it is not pleasing to Him. Rather, it is blasphemous and it offends Him, just as every blasphemy does. God bless.

[Madonna]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Jul 10 2004, 01:34 AM'] I know that St. Augustine used to say that when we sing we pray twice. I would personally say that sacred music is that which is pleasing to God and reverent. It would have to be something that is true and from the heart, plus it would also have to be a prayer to God. Now much of music is this way, but as I said, I believe it should also promote reverence. Gregorian Chants do all of these things. It's reverent, Theologically sound, comes from the heart, and especially in the Mass complements it and helps people to truly enter into that which they are partaking. To top all of this off, Gregorian Chants are a true example of love.

One of the greatest things about the chants, as I have said repeatedly, they promote reverence. When we pray, normally it's not loud, but in a sense of humility. If we don't, then we probably need to rethink how we're approaching God, at least in the most holy Mass. Gregorian Chants are incredible examples of praying quietly and teaching humility. They are simple and not gaudy, and are true examples of prayer as taught by St. Thérèse. Rock music can be good, and even pleasing to God, but it makes the Mass less reverent in that it takes away from the sacrifice and puts focus on the music. Gregorian Chants (for me) do the exact opposite. They bring us deeper into the Mass and help us focus less on the music.

And this is what I consider sacred music. [/quote]
You took the words right out of my mouth.

I used to be really involved in the charasmatic movement. In discovering how I am called to worship, I have done a complete turnaround and now enjoy contemplative worship the majority of the time. I find "pop" Amens after the Consecration break my foucs and spirit of prayer. I think Mass becomes too much in danger of being a concert. Outside of Mass, people can listen to any genre. Inside of Mass, I think it should be something that turns all eyes toward God and not the music ministry.

The late Rich Mullins is a big role model for me. He once told a story about when he was a boy and learning to play piano. He had to play the piano at his Church's service. When he came back, his teacher asked how he did, and he repsonded that everyone came up to him after the service saying how well he played. The teacher told him he had failed them. A dejected young Rich was puzzled. The teacher told him that the congregation should not even be aware he is there, but his music should give glory completely to God.

[catholicguy]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Jul 10 2004, 01:34 AM'] I know that St. Augustine used to say that when we sing we pray twice.  I would personally say that sacred music is that which is pleasing to God and reverent.  It would have to be something that is true and from the heart, plus it would also have to be a prayer to God.  Now much of music is this way, but as I said, I believe it should also promote reverence.  Gregorian Chants do all of these things.  It's reverent, Theologically sound, comes from the heart, and especially in the Mass complements it and helps people to truly enter into that which they are partaking.  To top all of this off, Gregorian Chants are a true example of love.

One of the greatest things about the chants, as I have said repeatedly, they promote reverence.  When we pray, normally it's not loud, but in a sense of humility.  If we don't, then we probably need to rethink how we're approaching God, at least in the most holy Mass.  Gregorian Chants are incredible examples of praying quietly and teaching humility.  They are simple and not gaudy, and are true examples of prayer as taught by St. Thérèse.  Rock music can be good, and even pleasing to God, but it makes the Mass less reverent in that it takes away from the sacrifice and puts focus on the music.  Gregorian Chants (for me) do the exact opposite.  They bring us deeper into the Mass and help us focus less on the music.

And this is what I consider sacred music. [/quote]
I agree with all of it except: "Rock music can be good, and even pleasing to God." Some forms of music are objectively wrong. Rock music is one of those. It is not pleasing to God inside or outisde of Mass, inside or outside of praying.

Oh, by the way, St. Augustine said: "He who sings WELL, prays twice."

Edited July 28, 2004 by catholicguy

[Madonna]

[quote name='catholicguy' date='Jul 28 2004, 10:40 AM'] Some forms of music are objectively wrong. Rock music is one of those. It is not pleasing to God inside or outisde of Mass, inside or outside of praying. [/quote]
Who says?

[Azriel]

[quote name='Madonna' date='Jul 28 2004, 10:45 AM'] Who says? [/quote]
Ditto.

[Madonna]

I bet you God is reading this and laughing. Really hard.

Edited July 28, 2004 by Madonna

[carrdero]

All I am saying is that musical tones cannot offend GOD, words cannot offend GOD. If you agree that GOD is omnipotent why would a supreme Being be offended by the structural content that we call our vocabulary. I would think that anyone who could produce a sound be it by their own voice or an instrument would impress GOD to some degree. Singing as well as playing an instrument is very hard to sustain (no pun intended). I think one of the biggest misunderstandings we have about GOD is that GOD becomes "upset" or offended at the same things we feel are questionable. If we are to put GOD into the perspective of Almighty or Supreme and if we are to place GOD in the heavens then there has to be some degree of intelligence and understanding that GOD has that we cannot comprehend yet. And I do believe that GOD is above explicit lyrics and experimental musical compositions. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if GOD had his own musical preferences and they didn't match my own. In fact depending on the artist and the people involved in making any particular music they would have us believe that since these compositions came from their heart or from within that they are very sacred and personal to them and are worth sharing.

[Madonna]

[quote]All I am saying is that musical tones cannot offend GOD[/quote]

I think our Church's 10 o'clock choir offends God. Mosy probably the lady that squawks really close to the microphone.

[quote]words cannot offend GOD.[/quote]

Pretty sure God would take offense if I dropped the f-bomb. That's what confession is for.

[quote]I would think that anyone who could produce a sound be it by their own voice or an instrument would impress GOD to some degree. [/quote]

I don't think God gets impressed. I think He has expectations, and maybe is really pleased when we meet them. For those who can belt it out, and do it for His greater glory, He probably says "Good job, kid. Slap me some skin."

[quote] I think one of the biggest misunderstandings we have about GOD is that GOD becomes "upset" or offended at the same things we feel are questionable.[/quote]

I don't know. Jesus seemed pretty ticked when they set up marketplace in the temple.

[quote] If we are to put GOD into the perspective of Almighty or Supreme and if we are to place GOD in the heavens then there has to be some degree of intelligence and understanding that GOD has that we cannot comprehend yet. And I do believe that GOD is above explicit lyrics and experimental musical compositions. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if GOD had his own musical preferences and they didn't match my own. In fact depending on the artist and the people involved in making any particular music they would have us believe that since these compositions came from their heart or from within that they are very sacred and personal to them and are worth sharing.[/quote]

and this just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I think I need a nap.

[carrdero]

Madonna writes: I think our Church's 10 o'clock choir offends God. Mosy probably the lady that squawks really close to the microphone.

I used to think like this too. Not so much in the competence of a singer but I have been to many churches and religious halls and it amazes me how some congregations churn out slow boring sleepy hymns as compared to let's say the Baptists or any other church that incorporates the hard driving harmonius gospel stompings that are inspiring and move people to dance and sing along. I used to picture GOD tuning into those "stations" rather than other churches than I realized that was my preference not GOD's. Like I mentioned before I do not think GOD has expectations but is just happy that people are trying and participating in something that makes them happy.

Madonna writes: Pretty sure God would take offense if I dropped the f-bomb. That's what confession is for.

I can assure you GOD does not take offense for even thinking the "F-bomb" word. Words are manmade constructs and GOD understands that we need 4 letter words to sometimes express ourselves. Man on the other hand takes high offense to this f-bomb word.

Madonna writes: I don't think God gets impressed. I think He has expectations, and maybe is really pleased when we meet them.

In all my dealings with GOD I have never recieved that impression. I do believe that GOD becomes excited if we meet our own expectations because we wanted ourselves to meet these expectations but I also believe that if GOD did have high or low expectations for people we would live a miserable existence trying to please someone else rather than ourselves. There are many people who live for other people and when they are gone from their lives they realized that they never did get a chance to flourish and enrich their own lives and enhance their own interests. GOD understands this and I think that is the reason GOD doesn't ask anything from us.

To get back to the topic at hand; I was watching a really great series from the Rhino DVD Classic Albums series and they were focusing on the album by FLEETWOOD MAC- entitled RUMOURS which was a very popular album for the group. Even though the album made them successful and garnished many song hits for them, the turmoil and the pain that was existing in their lives at the time that album was beiing produced is a testament that even though these songs are not commonly played in temples, churches and other religious halls hold a valid sacredness not only to the artists but to the millions of people who had purchased and enjoyed that album over many years.

Edited July 29, 2004 by carrdero