Mass In Zambia With No Shoes And Dancing

[ladybug]

Explain please
[url="http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives/041202/041202q.htm"]http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives...202/041202q.htm[/url]

[cmotherofpirl]

Explain what?

Its a Mass in Africa.

[amarkich]

[color=red][Edited by Ice Princess: negative comments about Novus Ordo Mass][/color]

In any event, Cardinal Arinze is trying to stop liturgical abuses like liturgical dance from happening in Africa (N.B., he is African). If he is Pope, there will likely be a Ratzinger-like "reform of the reform" which I do not support as the solution to the problem, but it is something that will improve current conditions at least. God bless.

Edited July 9, 2004 by IcePrincessKRS

[cmotherofpirl]

First of all the proper title is Ordo Missae, not Novus Ordo.

Secondly there is nothing wrong with adapting to culture. that why its a UNIVERSAL CHURCH, not tied to a particular culture.

Guess what - Mass is a bit different in Japan and Korea as well.

Liturgical dancing is outlawed in the continental US, but not in Hawaii.

Please cite a document where Cardinal Arinze is tryinmg to0 stop liturgical dance in Africa or Hawaii.

Edited July 9, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[flip]

I am so jealous of the african Mass. I want to go sooo bad!!!

[flip]

do they do liturgical dance in Hawaii? if so, im soooo going!

[ladybug]

[quote name='flip' date='Jul 9 2004, 05:17 PM'] I am so jealous of the african Mass. I want to go sooo bad!!! [/quote]
When I listen to my HEART I feel the african mass sounds beautiful and natural. I would HATE to crush their spirits and take it all away with regulations. It seems so INNOCENT and PURE....like the Garden of Eden before the fall.

sniff sniff

But I know someone will tell me that I cannot trust my heart. I have to keep updated on the newest laws. I stopped listening to my heart a long time ago. I don't know what is right or wrong anymore, where I should go, how I should worship. Should I sit quietly or shout with joy? Tell me what to do.

My heart will be broken if they tell those africans to sit in pews in rows staring straight ahead and stop dancing and stop wearing tiger stripes. That is all I know.

[littleflower+JMJ]

we're talking about mass here thats why.

thats mass in Africa. as well as mass being different in the different places


outside of mass, of course, there is no rubrics.

[ladybug]

Maybe I need to move to Africa. I might sway by mistake and commit a grave sin.

I found this article about the history of dancing in the liturgy.
[url="http://www.adoremus.org/3-00-MurrayDance.html"]http://www.adoremus.org/3-00-MurrayDance.html[/url]

Apparently I am not alone.

[St. Catherine]

Dance does not belong in Mass in the Latin rite. It could be that the African dance could be from a different rite.

[Cure of Ars]

[quote name='St. Catherine' date='Jul 9 2004, 07:43 PM'] Dance does not belong in Mass in the Latin rite. It could be that the African dance could be from a different rite. [/quote]
This post belongs to me. I forgot to log off as my wife and on as myself. I hate when I do that.

[RandomProddy]

Oh no, no shoes, what a liturgical abuse.

On a [i]totally unrelated topic[/i] isn't Zambia one of the poorest countries in the world?

Edit: Yes, it is.

[url="http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0908763.html"]http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0908763.html[/url]

1. The U.N. classifies countries as ?least developed? based on three criteria: (1) annual gross domestic product (GDP) [b][color=red]below $900 per capita;[/b][/color] (2) quality of life, based on life expectancy at birth, per capita calorie intake, primary and secondary school enrollment rates, and adult literacy; and (3) economic vulnerability, based on instability of agricultural productions and exports, inadequate diversification, and economic smallness. [b][color=red]Half or more of the population in the 49 least developed countries listed above are estimated to live at or below the absolute poverty line of U.S. $1 dollar per day."[/b][/color]

We had better get there quickly and give them shoes so rich Catholics don't get too snobby.

Actually scratch that, we don't need as many shoes now, thousands died from AIDS, war and starvation. Perhaps we should have given them more masses so they could EAT... :irate:

Edited July 10, 2004 by RandomProddy

[StColette]

^

[flip]

[quote name='St. Catherine' date='Jul 9 2004, 07:43 PM'] Dance does not belong in Mass in the Latin rite. It could be that the African dance could be from a different rite. [/quote]


why doesnt it belong? why is it ok for africans to dance but not americans?

[flip]

this is what i dont get... the only thing that really seperates dancing at mass and dancing outside of Mass is JEsus. In Mass He is there. so i can't dance in front of JEsus?


if i can't dance during the Mass cause it might "interfere" with Liturgy, then how about....say, Adoration? can i only dance in the ABSENCE of the physical presence of Christ?


In heaven, Jesus is there right? Then can I dance in HEaven? or is that just silly?

[RandomProddy]

"I danced in the morning when the world was begun...."

[Cure of Ars]

[quote name='flip' date='Jul 10 2004, 02:52 AM']

why doesnt it belong? why is it ok for africans to dance but not americans? [/quote]
[quote]Liturgy (leitourgia) is a Greek composite word meaning originally a public duty, a service to the state undertaken by a citizen. Its elements are leitos (from leos = laos, people) meaning public, and ergo (obsolete in the present stem, used in future erxo, etc.), to do. From this we have leitourgos, "a man who performs a public duty"...[/quote]

Mass is a public communal worship. It’s not a group of individuals doing their own thing but a family getting together to do God’s work on earth. In a family there is a tradition of what is appropriate and what is not appropriate. In the Latin rite tradition dance has been deemed inappropriate. The Latin rite stresses awe and reverence to the glory of God. In the Latin rite dance does not communicate awe and reverence. In other rites this may not be the case.

Let me give you an analogy. It would be like in a basketball game where the coach says that we are going to play man to man. But I like zone better than man to man. So I ignore what the coach says and play zone. What then happens is chaos. Instead of the team working together towards the one goal you have a bunch of individuals doing their own thing.

Or it would be like going to Japan and walking in a house without taking your shoes off. To not follow the tradition of a given culture is disrespectful. So when in Rome do like the Romans.

Now if you want to get some people to dance and make your dance a type of prayer outside the Latin Liturgy of the Mass, more power to you. God bless

Edited July 10, 2004 by Cure of Ars

[Quietfire]

I didnt see anything in that article to suggest outright dancing, in the sense of just dancing.

There was dance to introducing the hosts (gifts) and such, and that is not abuse. This is allowed in some countries. In the Latin Rite there is no place for dance. I am sure that even if this particular parish is of Latin Rite, the dance is still allowed because it is in Zambia.

Please understand that in some countries this is perfectly acceptable, as long it is understood it isnt a 'show'.
Read that article again. The women were dancing at specific times for specific reasons.
They werent dancing just to show their dancing skills. Or to show off, or to put on a great show for guests. (Although these guest did enjoy it, remember it is something that we dont normally see, and therefore, different.)

There are differences.
Like I said, I have seen people moved to raise their hands during Mass, but it isnt overdone. It isnt obvious, like in some Non-Catholic services.

Peace.

Edited July 10, 2004 by Quietfire

[M.SIGGA]

duh ... just go to a charismatic parish.

[catholicguy]

Someone wrote earlier that the Church is universal because it adapts to the culture of each region. This is not true and has not been taught by the Church in any form, not even in a catechism. The Church is universal because it is for all people of all nations of all races. This does not mean that the Church adapts to fit each of these individual places, or otherwise the mark of the Church, oneness, would be lost. The Church is one, holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. The Church is one, as the Catholic Encyclopedia says, because its members:
1. Are all united under one government
2. All profess the same faith
[b]3. All join in a common worship[/b]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm[/url] (it is hard to find, search--ctrl+F--"The Church is One because")

We see that common worship is a central reason for unity in the Church. Throughout history it has been seen that the Church has brought her beautiful form of worship to all peoples. Savages, Indians, and others foreign to European thought and custom have been perplexed by the Mass of the Latin Rite for centuries by the holy missionaries of the Church (and converted by it). This is simply another case of liturgical indifference and lack of unity in the Church which all seem to be common aspects of the modern Church (this is essentially the philosophy of Roberto de Nobili the 17 Centurty "Jesuit" turned Brahmin).