Mass In Zambia With No Shoes And Dancing

[catholicguy]

To read more about the erroneous actions of the de Nobili and his companions, see Catholic Encyclopedia.

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09558b.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09558b.htm[/url]

[pionono]

[quote name='Cure of Ars' date='Jul 10 2004, 05:17 AM']

Or it would be like going to Japan and walking in a house without taking your shoes off. [/quote]
I did this once in Korea. I walked into the house of a priest. Very embarassing.

[pionono]

How's this for inculturation and dance:

[url="http://www.recongress.org/2004/frihaw.htm"]http://www.recongress.org/2004/frihaw.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.recongress.org/2004/images/satyng/MVC-162S.htm"]http://www.recongress.org/2004/images/satyng/MVC-162S.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.recongress.org/2004/images/satyng/youngadult7.htm"]http://www.recongress.org/2004/images/satyng/youngadult7.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.recongress.org/2004/satcontem.htm"]http://www.recongress.org/2004/satcontem.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.recongress.org/2004/images/nige/MVC-079S.htm"]http://www.recongress.org/2004/images/nige/MVC-079S.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.recongress.org/2004/nige.htm"]http://www.recongress.org/2004/nige.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.recongress.org/2004/images/sathis/MVC-115S.htm"]http://www.recongress.org/2004/images/sathis/MVC-115S.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.recongress.org/2004/sathis.htm"]http://www.recongress.org/2004/sathis.htm[/url]

Mahoney's great isn't he? Such profound vision...

[pionono]

Here's more wonderful inculteration and liturgical dance:

[url="http://www.recongress.org/2003/pix/friblklit.htm"]http://www.recongress.org/2003/pix/friblklit.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.recongress.org/2003/pix/healing.htm"]http://www.recongress.org/2003/pix/healing.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.recongress.org/2003/pix/sat/MVC-114S.htm"]http://www.recongress.org/2003/pix/sat/MVC-114S.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.recongress.org/2003/pix/closing/b3020033.htm"]http://www.recongress.org/2003/pix/closing/b3020033.htm[/url]

I'm tearing up that is so beautiful.

[cmotherofpirl]

We however were not talking about liturgical dancing in the continental US which is an abuse. We are talking about Hawaii, Africa, Korea, Japan etc.

So most of your pictures are irrelevant to this discussion.

[pionono]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jul 10 2004, 10:55 PM'] We however were not talking about liturgical dancing in the continental US which is an abuse. We are talking about Hawaii, Africa, Korea, Japan etc.

So most of your pictures are irrelevant to this discussion. [/quote]
Except that they had liturgies from most of those places for people from those places. All with the permission of the gloriously reigning Cardinal Mahoney.

[cmotherofpirl]

Still since it was done here it was an abuse.

[pionono]

So it is not a matter of who the Mass is for but on what chunk of land it is said on?? That makes no sense.

[littleflower+JMJ]

its quite simple,


when your in mass,

[b]in the presence of God, Body Blood Soul Divinity,[/b]

[u]you should be on your knees. [/u]



period.

[pionono]

[quote name='littleflower' date='JMJ+Jul 10 2004, 11:39 PM'] its quite simple,


when your in mass, in the presence of God, Body Blood Soul Divinity,


you should be on your knees.



period. [/quote]
Agreed!!!

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='pionono' date='Jul 10 2004, 11:57 PM'] Agreed!!! [/quote]

[M.SIGGA]

[quote name='pionono' date='Jul 10 2004, 11:25 PM'] So it is not a matter of who the Mass is for but on what chunk of land it is said on??  That makes no sense. [/quote]
It's only for evangelism purposes - it helps missionaries make the transition easier for non-European/westerners to become introduced to Christianity. Adjustments are also made for Asians and African Americans and Native/South Americans too.

The same arguments were made by the Jewish Christians as the Greeks and Romans and N.Africans were being converted, and then the Celts, and then the Persians, and then the Asians/Malabars, and then the Slavs, but that was about 2000 years ago so no one is looking back to remember when all that foshizzle went down.

Heck, the first Irish immigrants in the USA were uneasy about the cultural-religious devotions of the Italians and Sicilian immigrants, and that came to include the Poles and Germans as well.

Where I live, the flamboyant devotion of the local Vietnamese Catholics and their huge processions are getting the locals worried - but it's stuff like that which makes Christ's Church so cool.

So much room for criticism, what are all the critics doing in the mean time to stretch the boundries of Christ's Kingdom? No one was ever saved by talkin' smack. Their bishop says it's ok, so it's ok.

[jmjtina]

It amazes me that ppl want to move to a different country to "sway" to the music. I thought it was about Jesus, present in the Holy Eucharist, no matter where it is.

It is a liturgical abuse in the U.S. not in other countries.

We are blessed to even have the Mass available to us.

Love the Mass, not the dancing.

[M.SIGGA]

Through Western eyes it looks like dancing to us, but to them it's a form of worship. The whole dancing in the Church-thing actually comes from when African people were converted to Christianity - it carried over more heavily in the Southern Protestant churches in the USA. When I was in France last month, there were actually fliers advertising "Afro-American style worship Gospel experience" at local churches. Since westerners only dance as a pastime, well I suppose you can figure it out why we don't normally at Mass.

[catholicguy]

Sigga, please read about de Nobili and the condemnation of his inculteration practices which have become common today.

[Guest JeffCR07]

de Nobili is not the end-all and be-all of this argument. For many cultures, such as Hawaiians and Africans, dance is a mode of speech and communication, not just the rhythmic movement of the body to music. As such, liturgical dance for those people is perfectly fine, as it is praise to God. Far too many people here do not have the proper idea of the "Universality" of the Church. To these people, the Church is "universal" because everyone else conforms to the way they do things. This is not in conformity with the Tradition of the Church. The liturgy of St. Andrew was different from that of St. Ambrose, on account of the culture in which it developed. The Byzantine Catholics are not "wrong" to have a cantor merely because that is not the way things are done in the West.

Moreover, just because a "Hawaiian Rite" or "African Rite" doesn't exist should not mean that the culture and tradition of those people isn't valid for incorporation into the Mass.

I would also like to point out that the Holy See has been very clear on the subject. It is ok for peoples whose cultural heritage is such to have liturgical dance, not for those whose cultural heritage does not. To speak against the Holy See is a dangerous thing to do, and leaves you on very shakey ground.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jul 12 2004, 02:54 PM'] de Nobili is not the end-all and be-all of this argument. For many cultures, such as Hawaiians and Africans, dance is a mode of speech and communication, not just the rhythmic movement of the body to music. As such, liturgical dance for those people is perfectly fine, as it is praise to God. Far too many people here do not have the proper idea of the "Universality" of the Church. To these people, the Church is "universal" because everyone else conforms to the way they do things. This is not in conformity with the Tradition of the Church. The liturgy of St. Andrew was different from that of St. Ambrose, on account of the culture in which it developed. The Byzantine Catholics are not "wrong" to have a cantor merely because that is not the way things are done in the West.

Moreover, just because a "Hawaiian Rite" or "African Rite" doesn't exist should not mean that the culture and tradition of those people isn't valid for incorporation into the Mass.

I would also like to point out that the Holy See has been very clear on the subject. It is ok for peoples whose cultural heritage is such to have liturgical dance, not for those whose cultural heritage does not. To speak against the Holy See is a dangerous thing to do, and leaves you on very shakey ground.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff [/quote]
Word!

[pionono]

[quote name='jmjtina' date='Jul 11 2004, 01:13 AM'] It amazes me that ppl want to move to a different country to "sway" to the music. I thought it was about Jesus, present in the Holy Eucharist, no matter where it is.

It is a liturgical abuse in the U.S. not in other countries.

We are blessed to even have the Mass available to us.

Love the Mass, not the dancing. [/quote]
But my question is, how does geographic boundy play into this if the people are the same (ethnically). If it is an abuse for a Church made up of african imigrants who happen to be in the US, then how could it be ok for those same people to do on another chunk of land?

[cmotherofpirl]

Culture, not geography is the key.

[conservativecatholic]

[quote] The Church is one, as the Catholic Encyclopedia says, because its members:
1. Are all united under one government
2. All profess the same faith
3. All join in a common worship[/quote]

I'll have to agree; although, I believe that this charismatic movement is necessary to promote Roman Catholicism in predominantly Protestant nations such as Nigeria and South Africa.

Edited July 12, 2004 by conservativecatholic