Faith And Good Works

[picchick]

I was enlightened.

One thing that seperates many Chatholics and non-Catholics is that Catholics believe that Faith without works is dead.

"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" Jas 2:20

I was watching t.v. and a non-Catholic minister was preaching about great faith. On the show he stated "chapter 11" I am not sure what book or verse. Maybe someone can help with that.

He said that a "Cloud of witnesses" would come down and be recognized "not by name but by ACHIEVEMENTS in great faith." What might these achievements be but good works.

Also in Matthew 25:32-46, we find Jesus talking about the after life with the sheep and the goats. He says to the ones on his right, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry , and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in: Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me." After they questioned how they did this, Jesus answered, "Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me." Likewise, he did this for the ones on his left.

Jesus did good works. He cured lepers, the lame and the sick. He preached and healed spiritually.

Good works is the obedience of faith. "For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and accomplish, according to his good will." Philpippians 2:13

That is all for now.
meg

[Brother Adam]

Excellent verse. Also Romans 1:5 is great. Non-Catholics try to use works and faith exclusively. Works OR Faith. Little do they realize it because it is difficult to understand, but the truth is it is Works AND faith.

[Christina]

Not to mention that Martin Luther changed Romans 3:28 to read that we are justified by faith ALONE apart from works. This one word that was added has led many Protestants to believe in Sola Fida. That they are justified by faith alone, and that works are unnecessary.

[picchick]

Didn't he also take out the Letter of James that has the whole "faith without works" phrase out?

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

He changed the verse. Protestant bibles dont contain this error.

[picchick]

[quote name='thedude' date='Jul 10 2004, 09:32 PM'] He changed the verse. Protestant bibles dont contain this error. [/quote]
Can you explain that?

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Luther promulgated a Bible with an altered verse to support Sola Fide. However, no current Protestant translation contains the error (KJV, NIV, NKJV, ect.). Or, in other words, even Protestants regard Luther's action on this issue as wrong, so no further Bibles were produced with this error.

Edited July 11, 2004 by thedude

[picchick]

Thanks. One question still remains. What did they alter it to?

Edited July 11, 2004 by picchick

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Luther changed James 2:24 so that the word "not" wasn't included. After Luther, Protestants changed it back to the original form. Open any Bible today and you will see the correct form.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Jul 10 2004, 08:18 PM'] Excellent verse. Also Romans 1:5 is great. Non-Catholics try to use works and faith exclusively. Works OR Faith. Little do they realize it because it is difficult to understand, but the truth is it is Works AND faith. [/quote]
Bro Adam, I disagree with your wording. In the words of St. Paul in Galatians 5:6, it is "faith working in love". The works proceed from the faith as naturally as smoke from fire.

[Apotheoun]

The Catholic Church holds that both faith and works are gifts of God's grace.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 12 2004, 05:25 PM'] The Catholic Church holds that both faith and works are gifts of God's grace. [/quote]
So what effect has this on what I said above? On what basis are we justified? I would respond to this question with St. Paul's words in Galatians 5:6 - "faith working in love"

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jul 12 2004, 05:30 PM'] So what effect has this on what I said above? On what basis are we justified? I would respond to this question with St. Paul's words in Galatians 5:6 - "faith working in love" [/quote]
We are justified by grace, through faith, hope and charity. I don't subscribe to the Reformation theological nominalism, which erroneously taught that justification is merely a static and forensic concept; instead, I hold with the Catholic Church that justification brings about a true ontological translation from a state or mortal sin and death, to a state of grace and supernatural life. This translation is effected by a real participation in the divine nature [cf., 2 Pet. 1:4], which simultaneously involves the infusion of the three theological virtues into man's being. Faith must be informed by the divine gift of love or it is dead, and cannot justify a man.

Edited July 12, 2004 by Apotheoun

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 12 2004, 05:42 PM'] Faith must be informed by the divine gift of love or it is dead, and cannot justify a man. [/quote]
But love (charity) is [b]never[/b] spoken of something on the basis of which we are justified!

[Hananiah]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jul 12 2004, 06:09 PM'] But love (charity) is [b]never[/b] spoken of something on the basis of which we are justified! [/quote]
I disagree.

1 Peter 4:8
Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because [b]love covers a multitude of sins.[/b]

Proverbs 10:12
Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all transgressions.

Luke 7:47
For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.

Also note 1 Cor 13:2. Although it doesn't explicitly say that love justifies it does say that a faith strong enough to move mountains (surely strong enough to apprehend the alien righteousness of Christ) is nothing without it.

[Brother Adam]

Icthus,

What group to you ascribe yourself to now. My statement about Faith and works is not meant to be taken as an all out doctrinal truth. It is merely a way of explaining that the concepts are not mutually exclusive. Faith and works both play a role in our justification. I suggest reading "Not by Faith Alone" by Robert Sugenis. It covers every possible biblical and historical angle you can come up with for subscribing to sole fide.

Works justify differently then what most Protestants conjure up in their minds as Catholic Salvation. In a strict sense none of us can ever merit salvation. For the wages of our work towards salvation can only be repaid by God with death, if we are to obligate him to pay us for our work, for none of us have held to the law perfectly. By committing sin, we recieve the actual wage or payment for sin, death.

But through Jesus Christ we no longer have to merit salvation in the strict sense. Through faith and obedience in Christ we merit salvation by Christ. Christ though did not abolish the law. Instead we have the new law through Jesus Christ to which we are to be obedient. It is in this law of grace - in which we do not obligate God to pay us for our works, but instead God graces us with adopted sonship and through which we work towards salvation in a non-obligatory sense. Thus Catholics never claim that there are any certian amount of works to be accomplished to "earn" your way to heaven. One needs only to stay in a state of grace to eventually enter the pearly gates.

Hope that this helps.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Hananiah' date='Jul 12 2004, 09:51 PM'] I disagree.

1 Peter 4:8
Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because [b]love covers a multitude of sins.[/b]

Proverbs 10:12
Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all transgressions.

Luke 7:47
For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.

Also note 1 Cor 13:2. Although it doesn't explicitly say that love justifies it does say that a faith strong enough to move mountains (surely strong enough to apprehend the alien righteousness of Christ) is nothing without it. [/quote]
I would say, 'covers a multitude of sins' in that it makes up for the horrible effects of sin, and even prevents sins. But love can never have any effect on whether or not a persons sins are imputed to Christ, or remain on him, or not (which is justification)

[Brother Adam]

Ithcus is your view based on scripture, or are you trying to justify a passage to fit your view of scripture to which you want it to achive? You can speculate, but where is your positive proof?

[picchick]

Question for Ithcus:
It seems to me that you are agruing that love will not help you achieve salvation. If this is the case, then what about the scripture passage about Jesus separating the goats from the sheep? (Matthew 25:32-46) The goats were denied eternal salvation because they did not practice charity or love towards their neighbor.

[Guest JeffCR07]

I would also like to point out, Icthus, if you are not aware if this already, that you have placed yourself in a very awkward position. You have said that [quote]The works proceed from the faith as naturally as smoke from fire.[/quote] as if it is a refutation of the Church's teachings. It is not.

I will use your own analogy against you. You are camping, so you chop some wood and build a fire. Later on you take a walk and, from far off, you can see that there is no longer any smoke. Seeing a lack of smoke, you realise that the fire itself has died. In the same way, "faith without works is dead"

One could go on and expound upon the Church's teachings using this metaphor, for one would be remiss to say that wood can burn without causing smoke, just as one would be remiss to say that wood can burn without causing fire. The act of wood "burning" necessitates both fire and smoke. In the same way, the act of being saved by Christ necessitates both faith and works.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff