IcePrincessKRS Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 What is PDE? Principal of Double Effect--meaning a good effect and an evil effect occur. It can be used to determine the moral good in conflict situations where there is a question about whether something is moral or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 Thanks IronMonk, That clears it up. Let me summarize here. I think I've fleshed out and slightly changed my opinion. Intentional lying is never okay. We have to be careful about judging if a person is intentionally lying. It is okay to not share the truth or knowledge in certain circumstances. If lies are told in some situations, they have to be accidental to witholding privelidged knowledge, not intentionally to decieve. So in the case of hiding Jews in WWII, you could say "I haven't seen Jews in sometime", not "I haven't seen Jews ever". Does that sound about right with what you posted earlier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 For a sin to be mortal, there are three conditions that must ALL be met. Serious/grave matter is one of them. According to CCC 2484, it appears that not all lies are grave matter. However, there is a paragraph in the catechism that I ran across that made reference to the fact that venial sins weaken charity. So even though there is no formula that X amount of venial sins = 1 mortal sin, venial sins can lead us down the road to bad habits that could eventually lead us to a mortal sin. My advice: if in doubt, mention it in confession and see what the priest says. I do have to make one exception: I was taught a long time ago that perjury - lying under oath - IS a mortal sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 I would think that breaking any of the 10 Commandments would be a mortal sin. We know when we are breaking them. Don't mistake "gravity of a lie" to mean venial or mortal. There are different levels of mortal sins... For example; 3 Hail Mary's, 10 Hail Mary's and an Our Father, 25 Hail Mary's, etc... Levels of gravity. Jas Jis Here is the example I thought of when reading that from the Catholic Encyclopedia... Nazi knocks on a Priests door in WWII ( sorry this sounds like a joke - it's not a knock knock) Priest answers door. Nazi says "Are you hidding any Jews?!" Say the Priest is hiding Jews, in a hidden celler of his house. If the Priest said "No", it would be a sin. If the Priest said "Would you like to search my house?" or "You can search my house." - that would not be a sin. The priest never denied the truth, he withheld the truth to save lives. God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 (edited) There are different levels of mortal sins... For example; 3 Hail Mary's, 10 Hail Mary's and an Our Father, 25 Hail Mary's, etc... Levels of gravity. 9! 9! Any mortal sin will rob the soul of sanctifying grace and cause eternal damnation (see CCC 1861); venial sin will not (see CCC 1863). How can there be different levels of not getting into heaven? To say there are different levels of mortal sin is like saying there are different levels of physical death. Edited July 11, 2003 by Norseman82 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 9! 9! Any mortal sin will rob the soul of sanctifying grace and cause eternal damnation (see CCC 1861); venial sin will not (see CCC 1863). How can there be different levels of not getting into heaven? To say there are different levels of mortal sin is like saying there are different levels of physical death. No it's not. There are different penances, hence different "levels". Is killing one man equal to killing one hundred men? No. What we don't pay for in penance here, we will pay for in purgatory. We must pay every last cent. Killing 100 men, we must do more penance for than if we killed one. God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 IronMonk, As far as the mortal sin, a tape by Fr. Richard (from CatholicCity) describes mortal sin as a step off a 50 story building. It is complete and final. Venial sins have varying degree of consequence or gravity, but by definition, mortal sin is 100% mortal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 No it's not. There are different penances, hence different "levels". Is killing one man equal to killing one hundred men? No. What we don't pay for in penance here, we will pay for in purgatory. We must pay every last cent. Killing 100 men, we must do more penance for than if we killed one. God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary ironmonk I think what you are referring to are different levels of penance, not sin. Penances like how many Our fathers and Hail Marys are subjectively determined by the confessor. I do not know of any official standard "book of penances" that exist. To give you an example of the subjectivity, have you ever confessed the same sin to two different priests and received different penances? Let me quote CCC Part 3, section 1, article 8.IV "The gravity of sin: mortal and venial sin" "1854. Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. The distinction between mortal and venial sin, already evident in Scripture, became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corrobated by human experience. " (I will skip 1855 and 1856 because it talks of the effects of mortal sin) "1857. For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed full knowledge and deliberate consent". (1858-1861 talk more about the three conditions; unintentional ignorance; and the consequences of mortal sin on our soul). "1862. One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or complete consent." EVERYONE: I found the CCC paragraph that answers the original question directly: "2484. The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by the victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 IronMonk, As far as the mortal sin, a tape by Fr. Richard (from CatholicCity) describes mortal sin as a step off a 50 story building. It is complete and final. Venial sins have varying degree of consequence or gravity, but by definition, mortal sin is 100% mortal. Though it is "mortal", some mortal sins are still worse than others. If that wasn't the case, then they all would have the same penance given. i.e. "say 10 hail mary's" vs. "say 100 hail mary's". Some mortal sins are worse than other mortal sins, even though they are both 'mortal'. Killing 100 men is worse than lying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 Some mortal sins are worse than other mortal sins, even though they are both 'mortal'. Killing 100 men is worse than lying. I agree with you that in our eyes - and the Church's (see CCC 1858) - that is the case. But the end RESULT is the same - hell, whether it be for ONE unconfessed/unrepented mortal sin or ONE MILLION unconfessed/unrepented mortal sin. But per my above posts - especially the reference to CCC 1862 - there is a differemce in gravity between mortal and venial sins. In your eyes, please give an example of a venial sin (please omit any mortal sins that are rendered venial due to the absence of full knowledge or complete consent). (Please note that I am NOT trying to pick a fight with you. I admire your ability to show the Catholic church to be the biblical church, as that is what I try to do as well in the forums/communities I hang out in and some day we must get together to have dinner and compare notes/experiences. I am simply trying to understand where you are coming from). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 I think we've moved beyound splitting hairs and are now quartering them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 Ironmonk, I'm not sure your example about the priest and the nazis is correct. Because of the intention of the Nazi to kill the Jews that the priest is hiding, he has no right to know wether or not there are jews hiding there. He has forfeited his right to hear the truth and so it is ok for the priest to say there are no Jews there. The priest isn't lying, but stating the necessary in order for them to survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 Ah grasshopper, I must disagree, if you note that in the reply to the objections, it clearly states that it is a sin to tell a falsehood even to protect others or self from harm. My example is correct. From the Catholic Encyclopedia: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm Gravity While every mortal sin averts us from our true last end, all mortal sins are not equally grave, as is clear from Scripture (John, xix, 11; Matt., xi, 22; Luke, vi), and also from reason. Sins are specifically distinguished by their objects, which do not all equally avert man from his last end. Then again, since sin is not a pure privation, but a mixed one, all sins do not equally destroy the order of reason. Spiritual sins, other things being equal, are graver than carnal sins. (St. Thomas, "De malo", Q. ii, a. 9; I-II, Q. lxxiii, a. 5). Specific and numeric distinction of Sin Sins are distinguished specifically by their formally diverse objects; or from their opposition to different virtues, or to morally different precepts of the same virtue. Sins that are specifically distinct are also numerically distinct. Sins within the same species are distinguished numerically according to the number of complete acts of the will in regard to total objects. A total object is one which, either in itself or by the intention of the sinner, forms a complete whole and is not referred to another action as a part of the whole. When the completed acts of the will relate to the same object there are as many sins as there are morally interrupted acts. .... The Church strives continually to impress her children with a sense of the awfulness of sin that they may fear it and avoid it. We are fallen creatures, and our spiritual life on earth is a warfare. Sin is our enemy, and while of our own strength we cannot avoid sin, with God's grace we can. If we but place no obstacle to the workings of grace we can avoid all deliberate sin. If we have the misfortune to sin, and seek God's grace and pardon with a contrite and humble heart, He will not repel us. Sin has its remedy in grace, which is given us by God, through the merits of His only-begotten Son, Who has redeemed us, restoring by His passion and death the order violated by the sin of our first parents, and making us once again children of God and heirs of heaven. Where sin is looked on as a necessary and unavoidable condition of things human, where inability to avoid sin is conceived as necessary, discouragement naturally follows. Where the Catholic doctrine of the creation of man in a superior state, his fall by a wilful transgression, the effects of which fall are by Divine decree transmitted to his posterity, destroying the balance of the human faculties and leaving man inclined to evil; where the dogmas of redemption and grace in reparation of sin are kept in mind, there is no discouragement. Left to ourselves we fall, by keeping close to God and continually seeking His help we can stand and struggle against sin, and if faithful in the battle we must wage shall be crowned in heaven. (See CONSCIENCE; JUSTIFICATION; SCANDAL.) As for what I would call venial, it could be a thought, deed, or a lack of deed. I think failing to pray before eating could be a venial sin. It is a sin that does not destroy chairity or advert us to our last end. <if I was on a prot board this is where I would sign 'Can I get a boo yah!> (i'm "saying" but not "saying" that to make light of the situation in a comaradery way - not meant to sound pompus - and you got a nuggie) I was begining to think I was wrong... then I found the above in the trusty ol'Catholic Encyclopedia. God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 aw, I guess the student has yet much to learn. It just seems so RIGHT! Is culpability at least lowered? How about this situation. Society has starved you and your family, you need to eat so you take a loaf of bread from the government that is starving you. Is this stealing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 aw, I guess the student has yet much to learn. It just seems so RIGHT! Is culpability at least lowered? How about this situation. Society has starved you and your family, you need to eat so you take a loaf of bread from the government that is starving you. Is this stealing? Yes. Just as it says in one of the objections that stealing to give alms to the poor is wrong. But if someone is starving, it is likly that they're not going to be of sound mind. So I would think that it would be venial, but I'm not sure... and is it worth the risk... It all comes down to relying on God, not ourselves. We must last until the end. God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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