Please make me not a church militant

[fides' Jack]

What do you mean?

[Anastasia13]

This is not a today thing. Have a nice wednesday.

[Anastasia13]

8 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

What do you mean?

I think we are only going to talk about books here for now. I am half an hour into the recording of The Way of the Pilgrim. The author is saying that if he is sick and hurting or if he is attacked/injured, it is not a big deal because he cares more for how sweet the prayer is. That seems like something that only really happens to saints, not for normal people.

[Anastasia13]

On 8/5/2025 at 3:59 AM, Didacus said:

Seek Christ - that's all you need to be a Christian...  I'm really not trying to fit you into any other mold.

I've met very strong Christians who would go nowhere near a Catholic Church and I have not a single doubt they are closer to God than I am... by far!  The Church is a means to and end but not the end itself - the end is what counts...

What is the end?

[Anastasia13]

On 9/17/2025 at 6:08 PM, Anastasia13 said:

I think we are only going to talk about books here for now. I am half an hour into the recording of The Way of the Pilgrim. The author is saying that if he is sick and hurting or if he is attacked/injured, it is not a big deal because he cares more for how sweet the prayer is. That seems like something that only really happens to saints, not for normal people.

Well this was an interesting line: if you do not know what you are reading, the devils certainly do and tremble.

[fides' Jack]

On 9/17/2025 at 7:08 PM, Anastasia13 said:

That seems like something that only really happens to saints, not for normal people.

While I don't entirely disagree, I'm sure you know that we are all meant to become saints.  In fact, almost all of the saints were, at one point in their lives, "normal people."

Unfortunately the level of holiness the pilgrim finds in the book is not attained by most people.  In fact, there are impediments that exist today that did not exist for the pilgrim; some of these impediments make it impossible for "normal people" today to attain the same level of holiness without extraordinary graces (relative to the times) from God.  Nevertheless, it is possible for each of us to be given those graces if we ask for them.  The fact that God put someone in your life who is directing you to read/listen to this book is an indication to me that you are already the recipient of some of those graces, including some that I have been asking for myself.

Still, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and how to find Him has not changed for anyone since the death of Christ.  "Bad times create strong men."  This generation will see the revival of saintly people, once hardships escalate past the right threshold.

[Didacus]

On 9/26/2025 at 12:23 AM, Anastasia13 said:

What is the end?

The end is the beatific vision, eternity with God.

[Anastasia13]

6 hours ago, Didacus said:

The end is the beatific vision, eternity with God.

How do you even know you will get it?

[fides' Jack]

The theological virtue of hope, through the theological virtue of faith, gives us certainty that if we die in the state of grace, we will eventually go to Heaven, and stay there for all eternity.

[Didacus]

On 10/11/2025 at 7:48 PM, Anastasia13 said:

How do you even know you will get it?

I do not believe I am worthy of heaven, however I do not believe I am worthy of hell either.

When I think about my destination, I recount Mom's prayer; may it be per your will.

I trust in God completely, in His Wisdom, in His mercy.  In His hands I will leave my soul, and He will carry it where He deems it should go.

[Anastasia13]

13 hours ago, Didacus said:

I do not believe I am worthy of heaven, however I do not believe I am worthy of hell either.

When I think about my destination, I recount Mom's prayer; may it be per your will.

I trust in God completely, in His Wisdom, in His mercy.  In His hands I will leave my soul, and He will carry it where He deems it should go.

Why would I want that if the Protestant interpretation says believe and I’ll go to heaven?

Edited October 14 by Anastasia13

[fides' Jack]

It's pretty clear to all true Catholics and Orthodox alike, that Protestants will not go to Heaven (outside of extraordinary graces that some individuals might get).  Protestants reject everything that Christ established in His Church, in belief as well as liturgy.  They do not believe, and therefore will not be saved, by their own admission, even if they misunderstand their own admission.

[Anastasia13]

1 hour ago, fides' Jack said:

It's pretty clear to all true Catholics and Orthodox alike, that Protestants will not go to Heaven (outside of extraordinary graces that some individuals might get).  Protestants reject everything that Christ established in His Church, in belief as well as liturgy.  They do not believe, and therefore will not be saved, by their own admission, even if they misunderstand their own admission.

So my family is all going to hell is what you just told me.

[Anomaly]

Fides is wrong.  Google Feenyism.   The correct Catholic answer is outside of the the Church, you lose access to many of the Graces Jesus has won for your redemption, so it is more difficult to obtain salvation. 

[fides' Jack]

1 hour ago, Anomaly said:

Fides is wrong.  Google Feenyism.

My statement was a general one.  I believe in the Baptism of Desire.  My statement stands as-is, which you can confirm doesn't fall into Feenyism by the condition given: "outside of extraordinary graces that some individuals might get."

13 hours ago, Anastasia13 said:

So my family is all going to hell is what you just told me.

The doctrine "outside the Church there is no salvation" [extra Ecclesiam nulla salus] is a very old one.  All Orthodox and Catholics believe it.  And it's not to be taken lightly.

There are, of course, multiple different interpretations of this doctrine, and the Orthodox might view it differently than the Catholics (if they do so, I think they would view it more explicitly, but I could be wrong).  According to Catholic theology, the statement means that if a non-Catholic is saved, it is through extraordinary graces that they receive through the Church.  We can get into a discussion about how the Orthodox fit into that, but the Orthodox do also believe in this doctrine.

Christ said, "He who is not with me is against me."  And since most Protestants actually reject him by rejecting belief in the truth of the Eucharist and the Church, and also rejecting the sacrificial nature of true worship, their only defense when standing before their judge after death will be ignorance.  Now I believe that ignorance goes a long way ("Father forgive them for they know not what they do"), so I believe it is likely that some Protestants are saved. 

I make no claims on anyone specifically, Catholic or Orthodox or Protestant, that I think they are not saved.  I can't judge people's hearts or souls - only God can.

I heard recently that some Protestants actually pray the rosary.  That is, I think, an indication that God is working in their lives, through graces He gives them through the Church.  As to the salvation of those specific Protestants, I have no idea.  I certainly hope they are saved when they die.  All I can do is pray for them.