Feminists?

[KnightofChrist]

Most men should be held held to higher standards than they are at today. Namely the standards of Christ.

Edited December 1, 2008 by KnightofChrist

[Galloglasses' Alt]

Ditto.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote]I am sorry if this sounds rude, but have you ever thought that maybe women WANT to work? It seems like you hold this very negative view towards working women (not the individuals per se but the idea). It is almost "reverse feminism" (if we equate "feminism" with your personal definition, which comes off as negative).[/quote]

I am aware that women want to work. The idea of not working probably occurs to the minority of young girls as they grow up now. Success, wealth, fashion, and status are seen as superior and idolized in our time. Carrie Bradshaw’s life from Sex and the City is looked upon by the majority of women, it seems, as the ideal life to lead and strive for. They do want to work. It hardly enters their mind to be “simply” a mother and a wife. Is this because of living costs? No. Is this because they have some inward desire to exert themselves for eight hours every day? No. I think many – the majority - are motivated by the spirit of our time which shallowly glorifies strength and success. Kudos to the women who actually want to do something through working to benefit the world, which I find very few considered to the other or it is just a bonus that occurs when they actually work for their true motives.

I have no such negative view toward the idea of working women. I myself work as a secretary part-time for my father’s construction company, and I have seriously thought of in the past pursuing a career in business. I said that the above reason (that of the glorification of strength and success in our time) is why women are pressured into the work force. Unfortunately many women (as well as men) have eaten up the hierarchy of values that self-proclaimed feminists have supported and encouraged in the last sixty/seventy years. Perhaps coerced would be the better way to describe it, rather than pressured. It is undeniable that in secular society anyone who has not achieved success, power, great money, and a high education (or at least one of the proposed) is considered a failure. So these young people, particularly women, have sought after these things because “women are not weak and failures.” They can “do” something with their life. So a good majority go after degrees and seek good jobs to attain the secular notions of success and to be “someone.”

I am not against high-education for women, nor do I look negatively on the idea of a woman working. I do look negatively on the motives most women seem to have for working; which seem to be the above. Many of my friends who have gone to college and university seeking degrees and hoping for such and such a job desire to “be someone” and gain material objects for their supposed happiness. They want to be “strong” and “independent.” While they are seeking after materialism and society’s idea of “someone” they have lost the knowledge of knowing what a priviledge it is to be a woman. They do not know the mission of women. Being a mother or a obedient wife is so “old-fashioned” that it is not considered (they would much rather just have hubby and a dog) or, if not, it will come after they have achieved the most important thing which cannot possibly wait: their success. I don’t at all like the fruits of the “feminist” movement I see in my friends and co-workers. The feminist movement has done far worse for women then it has done good. It has done far worse for society then it has done good.

[quote]I have to really disagree with you on this one. Where do you get this idea that women are pressured/told that mothers and wives are "simple" and "weak?" I definitely do not see this in popular culture, particularly Hollywood where many women are having children while continuing their careers. The media is not portraying them as simple or weak. So where is this being portrayed?

And please do not associate a working woman with a woman who wants to be masculine. That is just offensive.[/quote]

Exactly in popular culture, women who have careers first and are also mothers and wives are glorified. However… where are those women who do not have careers? They are “just” mothers and wives. Are they glorified? Are they put on magazines? No.

Women are told that being a mother and a wife is simple and weak or at least not possibly fulfilling enough for the woman. To be a good mother and wife one has to sacrifice abundantly, loving without return sometimes, work very hard, be obedient to your husband, be humble, be chaste and modest… these are not characteristics that are glorified in our culture. Rather immodesty, strength, success, power, pleasure, and so on are. Just being a mother and a wife is not going to fulfill the woman. That is what women are told. She needs more. She needs to have a career. She needs to be “a success” and “have it all.” Your exactly right: pop culture says it all. The woman is not truly all the woman can be unless she “has it all.” That is what we are told. And that is simply wrong.

And I did not associate a working woman with a woman who wants to be masculine. I said the feminist movement and it’s “emancipation of women” was really a “masculinization of women.” And I don’t apologize for saying that. It is true. In many ways that is what it truly sought after and unfortunately in the case of many women and the majority of our society, what it achieved.

"The whole tragedy of contemporary feminism - which Cardinal Josef Ratzinger considers one of the greatest threats menacing the Church - stems from the lack of faith and a loss of the sense of the supernatural. Feminism is inconceivable in a word rooted in Judeo-Christian values. But it is in the New Testament that the full glory of the female mission and vocation shines in the persion of the Holy Virgin of Nazareth who accepted to become the mother of the Redeemer while reminaing a virgin. Once spiritual eye sight, severely distorted by original sin, has been corrected by the lenses of faith, we are in a position to understand God's creation as He meant it to be and to reject with horror the view offered by the deforming lenses of secularism." - Dr. Alice von Hildebrand

The feminism movement in it's majority has lost the sense of the supernatural. They no longer seek to be like the Virgin in all things. They seek to be like the man in all things.

Edited December 3, 2008 by TotusTuusMaria

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1717779' date='Dec 3 2008, 06:43 PM']So a good majority go after degrees and seek good jobs to attain the secular notions of success and to be “someone.”[/quote]

I agree that for either a man or a woman, materialism isn't a valid motive, but wouldn't having a sense of fulfillment be meaningful and valid?

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1717779' date='Dec 3 2008, 06:43 PM']They do not know the mission of women.[/quote]

Could you elaborate a bit on the misison of women? I don't think I'm familiar with that phrasing and not sure exactly what it is.



[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1717779' date='Dec 3 2008, 06:43 PM']Feminism is inconceivable in a word rooted in Judeo-Christian values.[/quote]

I understand and agree with what you're saying about society glorifying wealth, success, outer appearances, etc and I agree that "modern" feminism is misguided and focused on things like this but isn't the term "feminism" in and of itself a reference to the equality of men and women? I agree that "contemporary" feminism (abortion, etc) is incompatible with the Church but isn't true, fundamental feminism good, despite its having been perverted by extremism? -Katie

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1717779' date='Dec 3 2008, 05:43 PM']So these young people, particularly women, have sought after these things because “women are not weak and failures.” They can “do” something with their life. So a good majority go after degrees and seek good jobs to attain the secular notions of success and to be “someone.”[/quote]

I think this applies to men on the same exact level it applies to women. Men are "tough" and thus have to go out, get that award-winning job, collect a fat paycheck every week, etc. Therefore, young men also seek good jobs for wealth, power, and status.

[quote]I do look negatively on the motives most women seem to have for working; which seem to be the above.[/quote]

I think you should look negatively on the motives of [b]people[/b] who want to work for selfish, secular reasons.

[quote]Many of my friends who have gone to college and university seeking degrees and hoping for such and such a job desire to “be someone” and gain material objects for their supposed happiness. They want to be “strong” and “independent.” While they are seeking after materialism and society’s idea of “someone” they have lost the knowledge of knowing what a priviledge it is to be a woman.[/quote]

Then that is their fault for relying on materialism as a means towards happiness. How does this correlate with motherhood?

[quote]They do not know the mission of women. Being a mother or a obedient wife is so “old-fashioned” that it is not considered (they would much rather just have hubby and a dog) or, if not, it will come after they have achieved the most important thing which cannot possibly wait: their success. I don’t at all like the fruits of the “feminist” movement I see in my friends and co-workers. The feminist movement has done far worse for women then it has done good. It has done far worse for society then it has done good.[/quote]

I think the feminist movement is wonderful. Women have talents and skills just like men and should not be hindered from using them in college and the work place. These talents can, should, and are used to help run our world (from business to politics to law enforcement to education, you name it, women are involved). True feminism is not about destroying motherhood but about showing women that we have the capabilities to work next to men, and to work well. We can touch the world with our actions out there in the public. Not every woman is called to marriage and children. Women used to be raised with the idea that this was all they could do, and that men were the ones who would operate society. What of the women who did not desire this motherhood? Is it right to force a woman into a marriage when she is unwilling? Is it right to tell a women that she is not fit to work because it is her "mission"?

In my opinion, you do not see the fruits of feminism in your friends and co-workers, you see the fruits of secularism.

[quote]And I did not associate a working woman with a woman who wants to be masculine. I said the feminist movement and it’s “emancipation of women” was really a “masculinization of women.” And I don’t apologize for saying that. It is true. In many ways that is what it truly sought after and unfortunately in the case of many women and the majority of our society, what it achieved.[/quote]

So due to the opportunity to pursue a career, a woman has become more manly? I am confused with your reasoning.

[quote]The feminism movement in it's majority has lost the sense of the supernatural. They no longer seek to be like the Virgin in all things. They seek to be like the man in all things.[/quote]

I certainly do NOT seek to be a man, not in one thing, not in "all things." But if preferring to pursue a career as opposed to motherhood lumps me in this category, then whatever. No sense arguing.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1717811' date='Dec 3 2008, 06:57 PM']I agree that for either a man or a woman, materialism isn't a valid motive, but wouldn't having a sense of fulfillment be meaningful and valid?[/quote]

Senses and feelings are not, I believe, what we should base our vocation on. We should do what God has called us too, and this should be the reason we do it. For God and for souls; to better the world.

[quote]Could you elaborate a bit on the misison of women? I don't think I'm familiar with that phrasing and not sure exactly what it is.[/quote]

There is so much to it. I think to explain it in the simplest of words is: to love and to serve.

The mission of the woman is explained beautifully in Alice von Hildebrand's Priviledge of Being a Woman. Many have recommended that book on this thread and the other.

[quote]I understand and agree with what you're saying about society glorifying wealth, success, outer appearances, etc and I agree that "modern" feminism is misguided and focused on things like this but isn't the term "feminism" in and of itself a reference to the equality of men and women? I agree that "contemporary" feminism (abortion, etc) is incompatible with the Church but isn't true, fundamental feminism good, despite its having been perverted by extremism? -Katie[/quote]

Feminism in and of itself is a movement, to my knowledge. It is a movement for equal rights for men and women, however it has turned into something much more then just wanting rights. Everything now must be equal to man; including the roles men and women have in the family and so on. As it is has grown and "blossomed" it has turned into something that is not compatible with Christianity.

Pope John Paul II referred to a "[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_feminism"]new feminism[/url]" ... a new form of feminism, or rather maybe an old form - true feminism - brought to our attention as he took away our secular lenses. [u]Galloglasses[/u] said it best when he said earlier in the thread:

[i]"I think though, that in order to have an authentic feminism of any kind -- be it classical or modern -- it must be a feminism informed by the teaching of the Church. No brand of feminism or no brand of feminist can be deemed authentically Catholic unless it obeys and promotes what the Catholic Church teaches about the person and role of woman. [b]No brand of feminism can be deemed authentically Catholic unless it tries to be like the New Woman, the New Eve, the Church, exemplified in the Blessed Virgin Mary. Any other brand of feminism, however positive and however close to Church teaching, cannot be called Catholic. Unless it agrees 100% with Church teaching, it is not Catholic and Catholics should not be affiliated with it.[/b]"[/i]

Edited December 3, 2008 by TotusTuusMaria

[Tinkerlina]

"They seek to be like the man in all things. "


Gives a whole new meaning to "The Man" (as in the 60s slang).

Idk as far as career goes, I'm hopefully pursuing a career sometime in the conceivable future and I can't say that my motivations are completely nothing more than to love and serve-of course those are part of it but I still see nothing wrong with personal fulfillment-as in being challenged, intellectually stimulated, etc. I realize there is more to life than this but I still think there is a distinction between caring about financial success/outward success too much and wanting intellectual satisfaction. God gave me an intellect and my own personal talents (whatever/wherever they are haha) and I want to find a career that will allow me to use them, thus, I will be satisfied. -Katie

PS: This is just a refernece to myself and I'm not claiming to be any kind of example for anyone.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1717892' date='Dec 3 2008, 08:40 PM']"They seek to be like the man in all things. "


Gives a whole new meaning to "The Man" (as in the 60s slang).

Idk as far as career goes, I'm hopefully pursuing a career sometime in the conceivable future and I can't say that my motivations are completely nothing more than to love and serve-of course those are part of it but I still see nothing wrong with personal fulfillment-as in being challenged, intellectually stimulated, etc. I realize there is more to life than this but I still think there is a distinction between caring about financial success/outward success too much and wanting intellectual satisfaction. God gave me an intellect and my own personal talents (whatever/wherever they are haha) and I want to find a career that will allow me to use them, thus, I will be satisfied. -Katie

PS: This is just a refernece to myself and I'm not claiming to be any kind of example for anyone.[/quote]

I think it is great and should be encouraged for a woman to learn, be challenged, and receive intellectual stimulation. God did give us an intellect and talents.

If we are rooted in prayer and have a knowledge about what the Church teaches on work in general, the female sex, and the purpose of our lives I don't see how we could do something wrong. All satisfaction is ultimately found in God and His will for us.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1717946' date='Dec 3 2008, 07:53 PM']I think it is great and should be encouraged for a woman to learn, be challenged, and receive intellectual stimulation. God did give us an intellect and talents.

If we are rooted in prayer and have a knowledge about what the Church teaches on work in general, the female sex, and the purpose of our lives I don't see how we could do something wrong. All satisfaction is ultimately found in God and His will for us.[/quote]

Hopefully I'll figure out what His plans are one of these days! -Katie

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1717834' date='Dec 3 2008, 08:13 PM']I think this applies to men on the same exact level it applies to women. Men are "tough" and thus have to go out, get that award-winning job, collect a fat paycheck every week, etc. Therefore, young men also seek good jobs for wealth, power, and status.



I think you should look negatively on the motives of [b]people[/b] who want to work for selfish, secular reasons.



Then that is their fault for relying on materialism as a means towards happiness. How does this correlate with motherhood?



I think the feminist movement is wonderful. Women have talents and skills just like men and should not be hindered from using them in college and the work place. These talents can, should, and are used to help run our world (from business to politics to law enforcement to education, you name it, women are involved). True feminism is not about destroying motherhood but about showing women that we have the capabilities to work next to men, and to work well. We can touch the world with our actions out there in the public. Not every woman is called to marriage and children. Women used to be raised with the idea that this was all they could do, and that men were the ones who would operate society. What of the women who did not desire this motherhood? Is it right to force a woman into a marriage when she is unwilling? Is it right to tell a women that she is not fit to work because it is her "mission"?

In my opinion, you do not see the fruits of feminism in your friends and co-workers, you see the fruits of secularism.



So due to the opportunity to pursue a career, a woman has become more manly? I am confused with your reasoning.



I certainly do NOT seek to be a man, not in one thing, not in "all things." But if preferring to pursue a career as opposed to motherhood lumps me in this category, then whatever. No sense arguing.[/quote]

I think we see more things in common here rather then not. The disagreements are, I think, a splitting of hairs.

You are very right: there is no sense arguing.

[friendofJPII]

I am a proud, pro-life, Catholic feminist!

[exquisitebones]

me too ^ ^ ^ ^

[Lena]

......I've had this bookmarked for so long, I really like this article that addresses the issues of being a Catholic AND a feminist. I think I've posted it before....it's written by Elizabeth Fox-Genovese.

[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/feminism/fe0025.html"]Can one be both?[/url]

just thought I'd share! Many people see "feminist" in terms of good vs. bad, but like any social movement there is so much more to learn than simply labeling feminists as evil.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1717834' date='Dec 3 2008, 07:13 PM']I think this applies to men on the same exact level it applies to women. Men are "tough" and thus have to go out, get that award-winning job, collect a fat paycheck every week, etc. Therefore, young men also seek good jobs for wealth, power, and status.



I think you should look negatively on the motives of [b]people[/b] who want to work for selfish, secular reasons.



Then that is their fault for relying on materialism as a means towards happiness. How does this correlate with motherhood?



I think the feminist movement is wonderful. Women have talents and skills just like men and should not be hindered from using them in college and the work place. These talents can, should, and are used to help run our world (from business to politics to law enforcement to education, you name it, women are involved). True feminism is not about destroying motherhood but about showing women that we have the capabilities to work next to men, and to work well. We can touch the world with our actions out there in the public. Not every woman is called to marriage and children. Women used to be raised with the idea that this was all they could do, and that men were the ones who would operate society. What of the women who did not desire this motherhood? Is it right to force a woman into a marriage when she is unwilling? Is it right to tell a women that she is not fit to work because it is her "mission"?

In my opinion, you do not see the fruits of feminism in your friends and co-workers, you see the fruits of secularism.



So due to the opportunity to pursue a career, a woman has become more manly? I am confused with your reasoning.



I certainly do NOT seek to be a man, not in one thing, not in "all things." But if preferring to pursue a career as opposed to motherhood lumps me in this category, then whatever. No sense arguing.[/quote]


The problem is I do not believe your Bible agrees with you. Look at the letters of St. Paul.

Femminism is a lergaly secular movement and if you read the letters of St. Paul I don't think you could honestly say he would have approved or felt that what he wrote was in line with femmanist thought. Certianly Paul affirms the spiritual unity of all peoples before Christ, but with reguards to the functional, social inquealities and role that femminists seek to challenge I think your religion is against you.

[Hassan]

Like Here

1 Timothy 2
1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

7Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

8I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

[picchick]

That passage makes me very angry.

Sorry guys, some men are just idiots as are women. I will teach them if teaching is needed. AND furthermore I will NOT be silent.

I have problems with this passage and always have.

Shamefacedness? Why? What have I to be ashamed of for being a woman.

And yes I know the heck I will recieve with this post.

It seems that St. Paul is making women suffer and repent for the sin of another.

Just remember, men could have said no. And I wonder if man would have told satan no. No, men are just as prideful as women. They show it differently but are still proud. Or was it the fact that women are so seductive that he could not refuse a piece of fruit...

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='picchick' post='1727328' date='Dec 13 2008, 10:56 PM']That passage makes me very angry.

Sorry guys, some men are just idiots as are women. I will teach them if teaching is needed. AND furthermore I will NOT be silent.

I have problems with this passage and always have.

Shamefacedness? Why? What have I to be ashamed of for being a woman.

And yes I know the heck I will recieve with this post.

It seems that St. Paul is making women suffer and repent for the sin of another.

Just remember, men could have said no. And I wonder if man would have told satan no. No, men are just as prideful as women. They show it differently but are still proud. Or was it the fact that women are so seductive that he could not refuse a piece of fruit...[/quote]

I think St. Paul has a lot of good things to tell women in the passage, and I don't think we should ignore it or even disagree with it. After all, he is [i]St[/i]. Paul, but even more what he writes is the word of God. It is God's word, not him. And what God says is going to only be for the benefit of the woman and explain her mission and how she is to grow in holiness.

There is a time for all things. Our Blessed Mother surely lived what St. Paul said. She was quiet a lot of the time. We hardly hear her speak. She pondered all things in her heart. She was modest and obedient. Then we see too her telling her son that they have no wine, and asking him to remedy the situation. She is strong and courageous. There is a time and place for everything. The verses show us how to behave in prayer and encourage us to be modest and submissive in such. I think it is right, however there is a time and place for everything. There is a time to be silent, and there is a time to speak up for what is right and good (however with a calm, submissive attitude).

Women should keep in mind their faults. A lot of women (myself included) could grow more for the better if we kept our mouths shut sometimes and stayed away from those things that appeal to one of the vices that is most troublesome to women: vanity. It is good that we keep in mind the sins of Eve. We are a woman like her and suffer from many of the temptations and troubles she suffered from. It is also good to keep in mind the new Eve, our Lady, and by aiming always to be like her and to avoid the sins of Eve we will be great women of God.

Silence really is a beautiful thing and women can grow so much from being silent and "pondering things in their heart", and if we are to be used to teach anyone we must keep in mind that it is by God and for Him alone that we teach. He teaches through us. And knowing our value as women (being proud of that fact) and what a privilege it is to be a woman, we should be ashamed at the way women have behaved. We should strive to follow St. Paul in all his words so that we may not fall into the same sins many of our sex have fallen into, and so that we may fulfill our mission as women: to love and to serve.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='picchick' post='1727328' date='Dec 13 2008, 09:56 PM']That passage makes me very angry.

Sorry guys, some men are just idiots as are women. I will teach them if teaching is needed. AND furthermore I will NOT be silent.

I have problems with this passage and always have.

Shamefacedness? Why? What have I to be ashamed of for being a woman.

And yes I know the heck I will recieve with this post.

It seems that St. Paul is making women suffer and repent for the sin of another.

Just remember, men could have said no. And I wonder if man would have told satan no. No, men are just as prideful as women. They show it differently but are still proud. Or was it the fact that women are so seductive that he could not refuse a piece of fruit...[/quote]

Meg, I feel the same way. A lot of St. Paul's writings disturb me because they do come off, to me, as chauvanistic. I actually don't read many of his writings because I find they just make me angry and confused and lead me to more questions than I need. Hopefully someone here can explain a little. -Katie

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1727379' date='Dec 13 2008, 10:41 PM']I think St. Paul has a lot of good things to tell women in the passage, and I don't think we should ignore it or even disagree with it. After all, he is [i]St[/i]. Paul, but even more what he writes is the word of God. It is God's word, not him. And what God says is going to only be for the benefit of the woman and explain her mission and how she is to grow in holiness.

There is a time for all things. Our Blessed Mother surely lived what St. Paul said. She was quiet a lot of the time. We hardly hear her speak. She pondered all things in her heart. She was modest and obedient. Then we see too her telling her son that they have no wine, and asking him to remedy the situation. She is strong and courageous. There is a time and place for everything. The verses show us how to behave in prayer and encourage us to be modest and submissive in such. I think it is right, however there is a time and place for everything. There is a time to be silent, and there is a time to speak up for what is right and good (however with a calm, submissive attitude).

Women should keep in mind their faults. A lot of women (myself included) could grow more for the better if we kept our mouths shut sometimes and stayed away from those things that appeal to one of the vices that is most troublesome to women: vanity. It is good that we keep in mind the sins of Eve. We are a woman like her and suffer from many of the temptations and troubles she suffered from. It is also good to keep in mind the new Eve, our Lady, and by aiming always to be like her and to avoid the sins of Eve we will be great women of God.

Silence really is a beautiful thing and women can grow so much from being silent and "pondering things in their heart", and if we are to be used to teach anyone we must keep in mind that it is by God and for Him alone that we teach. He teaches through us. And knowing our value as women (being proud of that fact) and what a privilege it is to be a woman, we should be ashamed at the way women have behaved. We should strive to follow St. Paul in all his words so that we may not fall into the same sins many of our sex have fallen into, and so that we may fulfill our mission as women: to love and to serve.[/quote]

I don't know...to me being quiet, silence, etc is more of a personality trait. Some people, men and women, are louder, more assertive, more outgoing. Others are more quiet, keep to themselves. It doesn't seem to me that one is better than the other. As far as teaching and being used as a vessel by God and for Him-isn't that true of men and women alike? And I don't understand what you mean by "we should be ashamed at the wa women have behaved." What women, exactly? I don't mean to sound argumentative, I just don't get that part. I'm ashamed of the way some women have behaved. I'm ashamed at the way some men have behaved, I'm ashamed of myself a lot. While some of St. Paul's ideas make sense, such as being submissive in prayer-why does he only speak to women about this? Shouldn't all people be submissive in prayer? The picture your post paints in my mind is a quiet, docile and dull Victorian woman who sits in the corner and keeps quiet. I'm sure you mean a lot more, but that's what I'm getting and it sure as heck isn't anything close to what I think women have to be like. -Katie

[Galloglasses' Alt]

I'm not touching this thread after the proverbial can of worms Hassan just opened up.