Feminists?

[track2004]

Totally didn't see this til now, but I think feminism and Catholicism are compatible, but that depends on you're definition of feminism, or rather what you want to accomplish with it. I don't think the radical feminism would bode well in the Church, but there are surely some groups that do.

So I'm taking a class this semester called 200 Years of Feminist Thought. It pretty much rocks. Though I don't agree with everything feminism has fought for over the last 200 years reading their essays should be kinda cool. And, too, feminists can't really define feminism because there are so many different appraoches to it, but I said the equality of men and women. The dignity one sounded good too, but whateva, I just kinda picked.

[Maggyie]

Whoooo is bumping these old poll threads? Maybe it is just me but I am sick of hearing about any kind of feminism, including authentic Catholic feminism. Maybe it is wrong of me but I just can't stand it anymore. Over exposed to it maybe. True womanhood, Mary as model, blah blah blah okay after hearing about it one million times, I get it. I guess it hasn't sunk into the mainstream yet and that's why people have to keep talking about it to the point of nausea. Now "Catholic masculinism," that is more terra incognito and intriguing...

[Theoketos]

I concur with you interpretation.

[HisChildForever]

I am a female. I am proud to be a female. Gender should not determine my equality. Women and men are equal human beings.

That is all there is to it.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1706491' date='Nov 20 2008, 11:37 PM']I am a female. I am proud to be a female. Gender should not determine my equality. Women and men are equal human beings.

That is all there is to it.[/quote]


Yes yes yes, I agree, men and women should be equal before the law, blah blah blah, I am just saying who really cares anymore? I know that I don't. I mean I really didn't feel oppressed by the man this morning as I put on my coat and slipped on the ice in my driveway, nor have I on any previous mornings. I am just sick of hearing about it. All these gender-charged thread on Phatmass are probably contributing to how I feel, lol!

But for the love of God it is soooo stale. That is why I find the men's rights and father's rights movements so much more interesting, because people haven't been gabbing about it NONSTOP for the last 40 years. The only good thing is that with every generation of women there seem to be fewer and fewer of us with the feminism hangup. I mean none of my friends from my very secular college defined themselves by their reproductive organs (well except for the ones involved in the V. Monologues) or viewed themselves as victims of a patriarchal society. Maybe because we just took equality for granted? And so our conversations were blessedly free of the same old blah blah blah!

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1707284' date='Nov 21 2008, 03:51 PM']Yes yes yes, I agree, men and women should be equal before the law, blah blah blah, I am just saying who really cares anymore? I know that I don't. I mean I really didn't feel oppressed by the man this morning as I put on my coat and slipped on the ice in my driveway, nor have I on any previous mornings. I am just sick of hearing about it. All these gender-charged thread on Phatmass are probably contributing to how I feel, lol!

But for the love of God it is soooo stale. That is why I find the men's rights and father's rights movements so much more interesting, because people haven't been gabbing about it NONSTOP for the last 40 years. The only good thing is that with every generation of women there seem to be fewer and fewer of us with the feminism hangup. I mean none of my friends from my very secular college defined themselves by their reproductive organs (well except for the ones involved in the V. Monologues) or viewed themselves as victims of a patriarchal society. Maybe because we just took equality for granted? And so our conversations were blessedly free of the same old blah blah blah![/quote]

Just be very careful about Father's Rights groups-I'm not saying they are all bad but due to a horrific circumstance in my family invovling the family court system, I am very aware of the massive corruption and involvement of so called "father's rights" groups in the web of alliances and other dealmaking that goes on in the court system. I understand why they are more interesting to you though because it's something that isn't hashed out as much.

I totally understand why you're kind of sick of hearing it but I will say that many of us here are very lucky to have grown up in a government that protects women (for the most part) and family and friends that respect us. This is not the case for many women in the world, and even in this country, so I don't think it's totally irrelevant to keep the topic part of a larger discussion.

My view is simply that men and women are equal-we have differences but our dignity and importance is the same. I've never called myself a feminist, but the basic definition of feminism is beliving in the equality of women and men so I guess that technically qualifies me. -Katie

[Snowcatpa]

[font="Book Antiqua"][quote name='Ellenita' post='26177' date='Sep 5 2003, 09:54 PM']There is quite alot of research evidence which suggests that children are 'gendered' into their roles at a very early age as a result of the toys they are given, the way adults respond to them, peer pressure...isn't there a link between that and the fact that men are percieved as more logical and women more emotional?[/quote]

[color="purple"]There's research both ways on that. Sociologically settings are important for sure, but there are also studies that indicate distinct differences before any sociological influences can occur (when babies are 1 hour and 1 day old). See: [u][b]The Essential Difference[/b][/u], a pop-psychology book about the subject that gathers a lot of the research. "One day old boys look longer at a mechanical mobile (a system with predictable laws of motion) than at a person's face (an object that is next to impossible to systemize)... One-year-old girls showed the opposite preference."

Sex differences are present very early in life. This is not as simplistic as it seems so I'll refer you to the book which can point you to the studies if you want to learn more. [/color]


[quote name='Luke2219' post='26639' date='Sep 7 2003, 09:49 PM']Can you be Catholic and a feminist? That depends on what you mean by feminist.[/quote]

[font="Book Antiqua"][/font][color="purple"]I hear ya! Many people above have already referred to John Paul II's New Feminism. There's a Wikipedia article as well that consolidates a lot of info regarding the subject, cause it's hard to find out about. I'm kind of biased because I contributed a lot to it, but I haven't found anything that articulates the main philosophical viewpoints of New Feminism more comprehensively (hence why I felt it had to be expanded). Please tell me if you do!

Generally speaking, however, most feminists not of the Catholic-friendly variety dislike the term feminism being applied to these set of viewpoints because they are so historically divergent from the 20th century history of Feminism that most of us conjure up in our minds. For your project, I'd definitely suggest mentioning that hostility if you can find written proof of it in post-comments or things like that.

To give you an example, the Wikipedia article now has "Antifeminism" and
"Misogyny" as "See also" topics for New Feminism. If that's not a clear indication what most feminists think our definition of feminism is I don't know what is...

I left it up so you could see and use in your paper if you needed to. However, please phatmassers, feel free to take those links off if you think they should be off now!

I try not to check the article more than once every 6th months because it makes me sad what people add to it [/color][/font]

[Deb]

Feminism is the worst thing that ever happened to women. It took them from trying to be treated with the respect and dignity one would treat an equal to become people not really deserving of respect and dignity.

Before anyone jumps all over me for that. It is not all women, but take a look at the secular world. Stopping sexual harrassment was a goal for women and badly needed. Now, women seem to stand for nothing much more than what they can offer sexually.

Women wanted to stop being second class citizens. Now, no class citizens. Now that women are equal in the ways of work and education, they find themselves alone and empty. They got the money, they have the material things but, they also got their casual sex, their abortions, their emptiness and their prozac.

[color="#0000FF"]Picture God as saying to you, "My son, why is it that day by day you rise, and pray, and genuflect, and even strike the ground with your forehead, nay sometimes even shed tears, while you say to Me: 'My Father, give me wealth!' If I were to give it to you, you would think yourself of some importance, you would fancy that you had gained something very great. Because you asked for it, you have it. But take care to make good use of it. Before you had it, you were humble; now that you have begun to be rich you despise the poor. What kind of a good is that which only makes you worse? For worse you are, since you were bad already. And that it would make you worse you knew not; hence you asked it of Me. I gave it to you, and I proved you; you have found -- and you have found out! Ask of Me better things than these, greater things than these. Ask of Me spiritual things. Ask of Me Myself!". [/color]
St. Augustine

[HisChildForever]

[quote]Now that women are equal in the ways of work and education, they find themselves alone and empty.[/quote]

I'm not alone and empty. I'm thrilled.

Are you saying that women shouldn't be equal in the ways of work and education? I'm confused.

[b]Edit[/b]
I would also like to add that the reason for having equal work and education is not for "money" or "material things" - although of course money is needed for expenses. I personally love school, and I love learning. I am so excited to get out into the work force and put my smarts to use and help people.

Edited November 23, 2008 by HisChildForever

[Maggyie]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1708852' date='Nov 23 2008, 07:38 PM']I'm not alone and empty. I'm thrilled.

Are you saying that women shouldn't be equal in the ways of work and education? I'm confused.

[b]Edit[/b]
I would also like to add that the reason for having equal work and education is not for "money" or "material things" - although of course money is needed for expenses. I personally love school, and I love learning. I am so excited to get out into the work force and put my smarts to use and help people.[/quote]

I think what she means is that all that equality didn't quite turn out to be the panacea women thought it was going to be. You can have all the education and all the professional opportunities and still be empty inside. This comes as a surprise to girls who have been told throughout their lives that having a career is what will completely fulfill them - they don't need a man, a family, the Church, nobody but their strong selves and a career track job at a bank or similar. The truth is, you+your career+nobody else equals a whole lot of loneliness. The truth is there is a place in the human heart that only God can fill, and if you don't have Him, all the professional achievement in the world will leave you cold. That is what I think Deb is trying to say, anyway.

On a personal note, I am glad you like school but unfortunately the "real world" is much different, not at ALL like school and a lot less inspiring. For me graduation was like a cold shower. I thought that when I got out of school I was going to have a meaningful career that really impacted a lot of people right away. But that's not the way it works. Even in direct-care fields like nursing there are dues to be paid before you can really start to make an impact on people's lives. And the results are usually a lot less gratifying than what you expected - just talk to someone who has been employed with a master's in social work! There is a reason that hardly anyone lasts in that field.

I don't tell you this to discourage you but just to tell you not to put all your self-worth eggs in one basket, lol, awkward turn of phrase! If you get out there all excited and enthusiastic and you find out that you don't actually enjoy the rat race as much as you expected, don't feel like a failure or less smart or less adult or less of a woman. There is a reason that they call work, "work" and not "play."

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1708967' date='Nov 23 2008, 10:05 PM']You can have all the education and all the professional opportunities and still be empty inside.[/quote]

Same can apply to men.

[quote]This comes as a surprise to girls who have been told throughout their lives that having a career is what will completely fulfill them - they don't need a man, a family, the Church, nobody but their strong selves and a career track job at a bank or similar. The truth is, you+your career+nobody else equals a whole lot of loneliness. The truth is there is a place in the human heart that only God can fill, and if you don't have Him, all the professional achievement in the world will leave you cold. That is what I think Deb is trying to say, anyway.[/quote]

Then this (what you are saying, which I agree with) can also be applied to every single non-Catholic/non-Christian out there who is single and working, regardless of gender.


[quote]On a personal note, I am glad you like school but unfortunately the "real world" is much different, not at ALL like school and a lot less inspiring. For me graduation was like a cold shower. I thought that when I got out of school I was going to have a meaningful career that really impacted a lot of people right away. But that's not the way it works. Even in direct-care fields like nursing there are dues to be paid before you can really start to make an impact on people's lives. And the results are usually a lot less gratifying than what you expected - just talk to someone who has been employed with a master's in social work! There is a reason that hardly anyone lasts in that field.

I don't tell you this to discourage you but just to tell you not to put all your self-worth eggs in one basket, lol, awkward turn of phrase! If you get out there all excited and enthusiastic and you find out that you don't actually enjoy the rat race as much as you expected, don't feel like a failure or less smart or less adult or less of a woman. There is a reason that they call work, "work" and not "play."[/quote]

Being twenty does't make me naive. I know it's going to be hard as Hell.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1709015' date='Nov 23 2008, 11:00 PM']Same can apply to men.



Then this (what you are saying, which I agree with) can also be applied to every single non-Catholic/non-Christian out there who is single and working, regardless of gender.[/quote]


Yes, of course it applies to men and to non Christians. However there is no "masculinist" movement out there that teaches boys from an early age that career is all that matters, that a career will make you happy. In reality a a career puts food on the table and that is all it does, PEOPLE make you happy, not activities or hobbies or work. And that is how most men, even the really successful ones, look at careers - a job is a job, and life is something else.

Not so for women, at least in the eyes of the radical feminists I have known. A man is not considered a traitor to his gender if he drops out of the workforce to care for his kids, for example. A little weird, but not unforgivable. Feministas do not generally look kindly on stay at home moms, whom they view as pursuing a lesser task or giving in to the "patriarchy" (how people can claim we live in a patriarchal society when how many households are headed by single moms and we had a female candidate for president and a female nominee for vice president? I don't know).

So, having been fed this crud throughout their school days a lot of girls go the career woman route and wake up at age 30-35 shocked that they are just not happy! They are major players at their company, they are experts in their field, and things aren't how they were told... or promised.

[picchick]

Maggie,
If you are tired of these sort of threads why did you post in here? Why not ignore it? I feel the same way about the homosexual threads and the abortion threads. They become overworked and what not and just get annoying. So I ignore them. It makes me think that despite your sentiment, there might be something worth talking. I am not condemning or anything, just stating my observations.

To all:
Let me start out by saying my definition of feminist: being totally happy, totally in love with being a woman. As being a woman, we are equal to man because we are also human. We can excel in all the areas that men can, maybe not always physically but definitely intellectually. We fight for rights because our past history shows that we have been stripped of them. Have we got the same freedoms as a man? To an extent yes, however, we are still paid less than men (which is improving but still is less), we are still looked down upon in certain professions (medical schools tend to work women harder than men to try to weed them out) and in many ways we are still seen as inferior.

Being a feminist does not mean that we tear down males. I believe that each gender needs to uphold the other and support them. If we are equal, then fighting for equality does not mean that we make the other inferior. This would then negate our whole mission. Instead of raisng us to a position of respect, we are lowering us to that inferior position that we put men at. Furthermore, being a feminist does not mean that we want to be LIKE males. Honestly, I really don't want to be a man. Although we do have many things in common. I like being a woman way too much.

The feminist movement today, I find, do not fit these categories. The common view of feminists are men haters, birth control pushers, reproductive "right" supportors. However, this is getting away from being a woman no? How are we suppose to fight for equality if we make men inferior? How are we suppose to be equal if we hate men? Does that mean we would hate women as well? If we state that men are pigs then does that mean we are fighting for women to be pigs too?

As far as birth control goes, I do support it for medical reasons if all other paths are exhausted. I think that in today's society it is being pushed and taken like candy, similarly, I believe to antidepressants. I do not think that it should be used as birth control. We are women. Isn't that what we were made to do? Why would women want to dumb synthetic hormones, chemicals, into their bodies for the sake of repressing what we are made to do? There are more natural ways to go about things reproductively than to resort to that. Cancers that strike primarily women (breast, ovarian, endometrial) can all be caused by birth control as well as outside factors. We we start messing with our natural hormonal cycle, things go awray. Has these women seen someone with ovarian cancer? It is horrible. Absolutely horrible. If caught early, breast cancer can be cured. No cancer is good. It is better to prevent it than to add to the cause of it.

I do not know why women fight for reporductive rights. A woman does have control over her reproductive system in a sense. You just have to know how to do it. I really cannot comprehend this new "right" it very well. I actually have to chuckle at this. I mean honestly, what are they talking about? I know what they are getting at but it is going against what their claim their movement is about. I think instead we should fight the objectification of women in ads, movies, television shows, et. al. Isn't that we want to be seen as equal human beings rather than an object to be guawked at? So I am a bit confused. If we want to be viewed as objects, then of course men are going to look at us as objects. And from this view we take on a subhuman form. They could do anything to us because we are inferior to them. However, if we do not see ourselves as objects then they will not view us as objects. By doing so we will demand respect.

Another thought on why women may feel empty when the are in the work force rather than staying at home. Maybe they are practicing "reproductive rights"? There are more things to the issue than just the fact of working rather than staying at home.

Thanks all!
Meg

[Slappo]

[quote name='picchick' post='1709647' date='Nov 24 2008, 11:22 AM']To all:
Have we got the same freedoms as a man? To an extent yes, however, we are still paid less than men (which is improving but still is less), we are still looked down upon in certain professions (medical schools tend to work women harder than men to try to weed them out) and in many ways we are still seen as inferior.
Thanks all!
Meg[/quote]

I think the biggest problem with feminine equality is what Meg pointed to right here. I don't think that it is right to pay women less for doing the same quality and amount of work as a man, but I also don't think we ought to have nearly as many women in the workforce as we do. The push to allow women to be in the work force was both good and bad. It is good that they have the right to hold jobs and do all these different things, but at the same time, with the manner in which this movement was pushed, it created not just the right for women to work, but almost an expectation that they work. With so many women now working, everything is geared more towards a two income family, and this creates very difficult situations for women who want to stay at home.

Now women that want to stay at home are some times forced to work, and instead of having the right to work, now they have the obligation to work to support the family. Many men can't get jobs high paying enough to support a single income family, and even those that can, many of them it takes two incomes to first pay off college debt and a couple of years for the man to progress in the work field before the woman really has the option of being a stay at home mom.

This is what I'm looking at now. Graduating with 80,000 in loans, my girlfriend graduating with 40,000. That's 120,000 in loans. If I were to try and raise a single income family from day one, it would be near impossible, which is really unfortunate since my current girlfriend would love even to conceive on her wedding night. Personally, I'm getting a second degree in a higher paying field just so that I can really support a family. My job will not be something that I truly have a desire to do, but it is what I will need for the sake of my family.

For a lot of young Catholics, it means starting off marriage for a couple years with NFP, not getting married until years out of college (even though the relationship and maturity of the couple is appropriate for marriage), or the wife not having the option of staying at home after having the first child.

If feminism didn't push so hard for equality in the workforce, I don't think there would be such a problem in trying to raise single income families, which is what culture has seen for the past thousands of years not including 1930's and on. Not only has feminism given women the option of working, but in many cases, the obligation.

[Maximilianus]

To answer the original question based on my opinion:
Yes, a woman can most definitely be a feminist and be Catholic but a woman can not be a radical feminist[color="#FF0000"]*[/color] and be a Catholic, or at least a Catholic faithful to the Church.

[color="#FF0000"]*[/color]Radical femist as defined as women that oppose Christianity, advocate abortion, advocate lesbianism as the only acceptable relationship for women and the true orientation of a real feminist, oppose marriage, and devalue men and their role.

Edited November 24, 2008 by Maximilianus