Pope John Paul Ii Is A Universalist

[Cure of Ars]

[quote]
[color=blue]“The Spirits prescence and activity, “ as I wrote in the encyclical Letter, Redemptoris Missio, “affect not only individuals but also society and history, peoples and cultures and religions"[/color]

Right here the Pope says the Holy Spirit is connected to false religions.
[/quote]

I suggest you read the story of Jonah. In that story it shows that God cares for and was involved with people of false religions. God asked Jonah to give a message of repentance to Nineveh who were a part of a false religion.

[quote][color=green]Then the LORD said, "You are concerned over the plant which cost you no labor and which you did not raise; it came up in one night and in one night it perished.

And should I not be concerned over Nineveh, the great city, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand persons who cannot distinguish their right hand from their left, not to mention the many cattle?" [/color](Jonah 4:11)[/quote]

Edited July 22, 2004 by Cure of Ars

[popestpiusx]

Budge, you did a very poor job of making your case. Your quotes are too short. There is no context nor have you provided specific references or footnotes. You have way to much of your own rambling in between these short quotes. All in all, I walked away feeling dumber after reading all of this. If you want to prove your point (if such a thing is provable??) then you need to dig in a lot more and examine all these things, as well as others, in context and according to proper interpretation. You migt be amazed that what you find is not always what you are predisposed to believe.

[popestpiusx]

And another thing:

Even if he is a universalist it would in no way shape or form infringe upon the dignity of his office. He would still be the Successor to St. Peter, the Vicar of Christ, and would bear the fullness of Apostolic Authority. He would be prevented, by the Holy Ghost, from formally teaching his heretical beliefs. Furthermore, even if I despised the man, if he was a raging heretic and had 700 concubines, and had destroyed the Church in the public eye, he would still be the Vicar of Christ and would still formally teach pure doctrine and I would rush to his defense or respond to his call without hesitation. This may seem strange and contradictory to you, budge (and others perhaps) but his office demands it.

I would also like to say, for those who may be wondering, that what I have said here does not contradict the positions I have taken on certain issues, which I will not go into right now because it would start a tangent that would distract from the larger issue at hand: a defense of the primacy of Peter (and every single one of his successors) to those who would slander that office with accusations which are not merely unsubstantiated, but also irrelevant.

God Bless You All!!

[Guest JeffCR07]

Some would go even further (myself included) and argue that not only can a Pope not formally teach heresy, but that the Spirit will guard the Holy Father from personal heresy as well.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jul 22 2004, 10:36 PM'] Some would go even further (myself included) and argue that not only can a Pope not formally teach heresy, but that the Spirit will guard the Holy Father from personal heresy as well. [/quote]
Historically this would not seem to hold much water. But I have no intention of getting into that here.

[Guest JeffCR07]

I would welcome the debate in another thread

[Chucho]

Budge,

You seem very sincere in your post so I’ll be sincere as well.

To start out, I want to say that to me in my observation of your post, your time spent as a UU has changed your personal views to such an extent that you still see world views and philosophies through the eyes of a UU. I may be wrong about this but, I may be right or at least near the mark.

[quote]In today's dangerous world, he continued, there is an "urgent need" for the world's great religions to come together, in light of their "common desire that all men be purified of the hatred and evil that always threaten peace."[/quote]

This has nothing to do with a new world order as later in your post will claim: [quote]“She too called for a "new world order" just like the Pope and … that "the great religions of the world should come together for peace”[/quote]Would you rather the Pope say that only Catholics desire to be purified of hatred and evil and have peace in the world or did you mean something else?

[quote]one main activity of UU services, is the combining of the prayers of many religions from Hindu invocations to what is called the Great Invocation. Our services would include Hindu chants, Buddhist readings and poetry. God was taught as being present in all the worlds great religions and even the lesser ones even non-theistic Uus aspired to a notion of people searching for the same great truths in this array of false religions or an “archetype” of God[/quote]

And also:

[quote]QUOTE
Religious differences reveal themselves as pertaining to another order…It is possible that men not be conscious of their radical unity of religion and of their insertion in the very same . But despite such divisions, they are included in the single and grand design of God in Jesus Christ, who united Himself in a certain way with every man even if he is not conscious of it[/b][/quote]

And also:

[quote]QUOTE
It will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour.[/quote]

Ahh yes, the archetype and the collective unconscious. Is it any wonder that Man has a burning desire for Truth? Would you prevent that relationship between God and man because he hasn’t come to fully know the God-man Jesus Christ who is the fulfillment of all archetypes and most certainly so since He is God and the Word that keeps us in existence? If Christ is the Logos in which we have our being and Christ is the Truth, would it not make sense that in every human, individually and collectively, we have a drawing to Him whether we consciously know Him or not?

There is no new world order to be found in the Catholic Church. You bring up the point that UUs “combin[e]of the prayers of many religions from Hindu invocations to what is called the Great Invocation. Our services would include Hindu chants, Buddhist readings and poetry.”

So do you find this combining in the Church as an authoritative practice? If not, I recommend to you to not use such references to UU and the Holy Catholic Church.

[quote]The prevailing message of Theosphy…is that of “unity”-- Unity of thought, beliefs and of the world. Religions are taught as being unified in core beliefs “All religions lead to god” and a panthestic notion of god promoted.[/quote]

There is a problem with this line of reasoning when you claim that the Church teaches the same thing. While the UU would combine all that they see that is good in the world religions, Catholic Unity is a unity containing the Truth of Jesus, not of Brahma or Allah since it is incomplete. Any truth found in Hinduism or any other religion is found in the Truth of Jesus Christ (and of course much more Truth) because He is the Truth and the Fulfillment of all archetype.

[quote]Through this idea of a supposed unconscious relationship with Jesus Christ, The Pope promotes basically a panethistic Christ through all religions[/quote]

“In the beginning was the Word (Logos), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be.”
John 1: 1-2

“God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light”
Gen. 1: 3

So you see, God spoke a Logos and it happened. Not only did it happen, but it is still here, held by the Power of God, therefore we are living in the Presence of Christ, we are living in the Presence of God. This is not pantheistic; this is the omnipresent reality of God. This is something you must surely believe in as a Baptist, at least I hope so. So you try to debunk the unconscious relationship with Christ that all humans possess, and in the process you deny the obvious collective unconscious that is used to draw us to that ultimate fulfillment of archetype found in Christ. This unconscious relationship is seen and understood in the very being we have in Christ.

[quote]Another thing the Pope writes is that the "Seeds of the Word "exsist in all religions, that too is a very very Universalist idea. He has even said this of Voodoo[/quote]

Just a little evidence please.

[quote]And that isnt even touching the ideas expressed At Assisi, that all religions are to come together for peace, and the sponsership of false religions praying to their false Gods.[/quote]

As you have done earlier in you post, you relate man’s universal need for Truth and peace between Catholicism and the UU. And now you say that because of this, false religions are therefore sponsored by the Pope. Come on dude, get serious.

[quote]But here too, the Pope even admits that he believes all "Authentic" prayer (even that of false religions) goes to god. ...At one point the Pope goes as far to label prayers to false Gods as valid and called by the Holy Spirit

QUOTE
“All authentic prayer is called forth by the Spirit, The “Seeds of the Truth” present and active in the various religion traditions are a reflection of the unique Word of God, who “enlightens every man coming into the world[/font] and who became flesh in Christ Jesus. They are together an effect of the spirit of truth operation outside the visible confines of the Mystical Body” and which “blows where it wills”.[/quote]

This “prayer [that] is called forth by the Spirit” that has “The “Seeds of the Truth” present and active in the various religion traditions are a reflection of the unique Word of God” certainly makes sense since we all have our being in the Logos who is the Truth. Or would you disagree?

Cardinal Arinze’s book…"The Solidarity of the World’s Religions" shows that the one world religion theme is promoted Vatican Wide. Arinze considered one of the leading candidates for the next Pope writes “With reference to other religions, the Church sees a great difference between them and herself,” Cardinal Arinze said. “The other religions are ex-pressions of the human soul seeking God, with some beautiful insights” Arinze goes on to point out errors in other religions but also speaks of their “treasures” Rather then following the Bible which speaks of children of darkness and those being led into the ditch by the blind (false religions),

““The other religions are ex-pressions of the human soul seeking God.” "Wow, that is beautiful.
About “those being led into the ditch by the blind (false religions)” bit, this is about the Pharisees' hypocrisy, not world religions. But you knew that.

[quote]When it comes right down to it, John Paul II and these other leaders are universalists who believe as long as someone is sincere and good they can be saved and that non-Christians can get to heaven without saving faith in Christ.The New World religion will be Interfaithism, that any religion as long as the participant is sincere are all valid pathways to God. (discovery of this book was one of the first things GOd showed me as He led me out of Catholic Church)[/quote]

I think the others here covered this, and a thousand responses of the same response can be found anywhere you look when talking about what the Church teaches on salvation outside the Church and this has absolutely nothing to do with “interfaithism.” But you should have known that if you really did your research on Catholic teaching.

[Budge]

Most of you seem to just want to deny what is happening before your eyes.

I cant beleive the creativity of excuses.

Please read 2 Corinthians 6:14-16

Christians are not to have anything to do with false religions.


To[quote] start out, I want to say that to me in my observation of your post, your time spent as a UU has changed your personal views to such an extent that you still see world views and philosophies through the eyes of a UU. I may be wrong about this but, I may be right or at least near the mark.[/quote]

No I am a born again under the blood Christian. I learned a lot in the UU of what Satans lies are and its sad to see the same thing in the Catholic Church.


Youre going to tell me this just making nice--with people of false religions...I know this board will erase all links about Fatima but there they did HINDU ceremonies right in a church. Look when one is UU you are educated on the New Age, Theosophy, Humanist movement and HInduism and Buddhism all at once. All false religions of the world have common threads. I hate to say it but you also learn the symbols. I have seen pictures of Catholic churchs with out right occultic symbols in them especially Taj Mahoney. If I still believed that people could be saved without Christ I would have stayed a UU. The Catholic Church more and more has gone towards Universalism.


[quote]Would you rather the Pope say that only Catholics desire to be purified of hatred and evil and have peace in the world or did you mean something else?[/quote]

The New Age teaches of this Great Purification. Come on look at human sin and evil, you think some Kumbuya events are going to end natural human nature or are you going to look to Christ?


[quote]Ahh yes, the archetype and the collective unconscious[/quote].

[u][b]The collective Unconsciencee IS NOT A CHRISTIAN Belief nor is it BIBLICAL.

The Collective unconscience is a New Age term which means that all humans have the same spiritual "knowledge" though they may not know it on the surface. You just named one of the major tenets of Theosophy. There is no such thing as a collective unconscience-=-pantheistic too--to the Christian[/b][/u].

[quote]Is it any wonder that Man has a burning desire for Truth? Would you prevent that relationship between God and man because he hasn’t come to fully know the God-man Jesus Christ who is the fulfillment of all archetypes and most certainly so since He is God and the Word that keeps us in existence? If Christ is the Logos in which we have our being and Christ is the Truth, would it not make sense that in every human, individually and collectively, we have a drawing to Him whether we consciously know Him or not?[/quote]

[u][b]When you say Jesus is the fulfillment of all archetypes you are preaching a false Jesus which is the New Age Cosmic Christ. Dashes of Jungian philosophies thrown in. Other religions have FALSE gods, they are not archetypes of truth. There is no drawing to Christ unless a person is witnessed to or knows of Him. There is no spacey oh the native in the middle of Brazilian jungle is going to figure out the exsistance of Christ. This is nonsense.
Why else did Jesus call for Christians to preach to ALL nations? [/b][/u]


[quote]There is no new world order to be found in the Catholic Church. You bring up the point that UUs “combin[e]of the prayers of many religions from Hindu invocations to what is called the Great Invocation. Our services would include Hindu chants, Buddhist readings and poetry.”[/quote]

The Catholic Church at every turn advances the cause of world government via the UN, I could post 20 articles from Vatican newsources where they call for the UN to do a new "constitutional engineering of mankind" to be a new moral authority for all nations and more. Ironic that given its the UN promoting abortion, gay rights and euthanasia.


[quote]So do you find this combining in the Church as an authoritative practice? If not, I recommend to you to not use such references to UU and the Holy Catholic Church.[/quote]

[b]Actions count more then Words[/b]. All I know is that the inculturation movement even in things Ive researched has out and out combined Hinduism and Catholicism in India and bloodletting and animal sacrifice--African native religions mixing with Catholicism in Africa.



[quote]There is a problem with this line of reasoning when you claim that the Church teaches the same thing. While the UU would combine all that they see that is good in the world religions, Catholic Unity is a unity containing the Truth of Jesus, not of Brahma or Allah since it is incomplete. Any truth found in Hinduism or any other religion is found in the Truth of Jesus Christ (and of course much more Truth) because He is the Truth and the Fulfillment of all archetype.[/quote]

There is no truth in Hinduism. Hinduism worships millions of gods, demons and false spirits, again if Jesus is truth in all religions, you are worshipping the so called Cosmic New Age Christ--not real Christ at all but AntiChrist teachings.

[quote]So you try to debunk the unconscious relationship with Christ that all humans possess, and in the process you deny the obvious collective unconscious that is used to draw us to that ultimate fulfillment of archetype found in Christ. This unconscious relationship is seen and understood in the very being we have in [/quote]


[u][b]I do debunk it. There is NO unconscious relationship with Christ. You either have the HOly Spirit indwelling as a CHrisitan or you do not and one has to be saved and turn ones life over to Christ to have the Holy Spirit indwelling[/b][/u]. This is what scripture says over and over. The Bible refers to even Children of the devil. Not everyone is God's.

[quote]Another thing the Pope writes is that the "Seeds of the Word "exsist in all religions, that too is a very very Universalist idea. He has even said this of Voodoo



Just a little evidence please.[/quote]
[quote]As you have done earlier in you post, you relate man’s universal need for Truth and peace between Catholicism and the UU. And now you say that because of this, false religions are therefore sponsored by the Pope. Come on dude, get serious.[/quote]


The Pope sponsered false prayer at that meeting. Even with some natives with their bottle for libations is pictured on the Vatican website. I can get link if you need it. More and more it looks like I didnt go that far when I went to UU from Catholicism, sadly I didnt know who Jesus really was, didnt know what being saved was about. [b]The Catholic Church nowadays is so busy looking for truth everywhere else but the Bible they may as well call themselves Universalists with a Christian veneer.[/b]

[quote]This “prayer [that] is called forth by the Spirit” that has “The “Seeds of the Truth” present and active in the various religion traditions are a reflection of the unique Word of God” certainly makes sense since we all have our being in the Logos who is the Truth. Or would you disagree?[/quote]

[u][b]How is praying to demons, praying to God?[/b][/u] Im serious please answer that. You abuse the word Logos thinking every spirit and false religion leads to God. The only one beyond CHristianity that gets it part- right is Judiasm. The rest are MYSTERY BABYLON. They are praying to Satan. How blunt do I have to be?

They dont know God. to say that prayers to false gods are going to god, is teaching same as universalists.

Edited July 24, 2004 by Budge

[Budge]

Please explain this:

[quote]Code: ZE04071108

Date: 2004-07-11

[b]Pope Lauded for Promoting Interreligious Dialogue[/b]


BARCELONA, Spain, JULY 11, 2004 (Zenit.org).- [font color=red size=5]John Paul II is the religious leader who has given the greatest boost to interreligious dialogue, say experts of the Parliament of the Religions of the World.[/font]
At the Forum 2004 being held here, one session was entitled [b]"Contributions of Pope John Paul II to the Interreligious Dialogue."[/b]

One participant in the session, Meter Huff, who heads religious studies at Centenary College of Louisiana, in the United States, said: "The Pope is the man of the millennium, as he has reinvented the papacy and reinvented himself."

A press statement issued by the forum's organization said: "The Pope was the first pontiff to visit a synagogue and a Lutheran church; he fomented for the first time in 1986 an interreligious meeting and has worked fervently for the rapprochement with Protestantism."

Ibrahim Ozdemir, professor of the history of philosophy at the University of Ankara, Turkey, said: "The Pope is today the voice of humanity's conscience and he will be remembered in the future at the same level as Mahatma Gandhi and the Dalai Lama."

email this article[/quote]

[url="http://www.cpwr.org/"]http://www.cpwr.org/[/url]

[quote]Pathways to Peace: The Wisdom of Listening, the Power of Commitment

The 2004 Parliament of the World's Religions opens soon! Join thousands of people of faith, spirit and goodwill in Barcelona, Spain next month... REGISTER TODAY!

Visit the 2004 Parliament Web Site.
Download May 2004 Parliament E-Newsletter
THE PAUL CARUS AWARD ANNOUNCEMENT

Bishop McLeod Baker Ochola II and the Acholi Religious Leaders Peace Initiative (ARLPI), a multi-faith peace group in Northern Uganda, win the Paul Carus Award for Outstanding Contributions to the Interreligious Movement.

Download the Press Release
Learn More about the Carus Award
 

The mission of the Council for a Parliament of the World's Religions is to cultivate harmony between the world's religious and spiritual communities and foster their engagement with the world and its other guiding institutions in order to achieve a peaceful, just, and sustainable world.[/quote]

[url="http://www.cpwr.org/2004Parliament/index.htm"]http://www.cpwr.org/2004Parliament/index.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.cpwr.org/2004Parliament/news/pressrelease.2004.07.07.htm"]http://www.cpwr.org/2004Parliament/news/pr....2004.07.07.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.cpwr.org/2004Parliament/dialogues.htm"]http://www.cpwr.org/2004Parliament/dialogues.htm[/url]

Universalists one and all

[url="http://media.barcelona2004.org/en/nota.html?id=1870"]http://media.barcelona2004.org/en/nota.html?id=1870[/url]

[quote] Home > Press releases
  09-07-04 // 19:06h

[b]GIULIO CIPOLLONE: “NO RELIGION IS BETTER THAN ANOTHER, IT IS JUST AN INDIVIDUAL FEELING”[/b]
This afternoon the session called “The Faith beyond religions” took place, led by the expert, Giulio Cipollone




[b]The professor at the Universidad Pontificia Gregoriana de Roma, Giulio Cipollone, explained “faith is the bond of the human heart with a project by God about the Universe”.  Cipollone explained that faith is “the loyalty towards a belief, and today we have seen that this belief has been used to justify the religious confrontation that does not help justice in the eyes of faith”.[/b]
Cipollone said that “the faith itself links us to a particular culture and we must respect its differences from our own”.  In this way, we could say that a religion is a different reality from faith since “faith is of human making and only depends on our reaching agreement and working together for a more united world”.  The Italian professor added that “our faith helps us to be self-critical since no religion is better than another, it is merely an individual feeling”.  History has shown us there is no religion in the world that does not have to ask pardon of another.

Cipollone suggests “looking from outside to find the coherence in our own religious belief”.  To do this it is necessary to tend towards generosity, be open-minded towards other religions, sine only in this way will we be truly fair in the eyes of society and the designs of God.  “Intolerance is no good to anyone, it doesn’t help to construct justice” Cipollone added.

The professor concluded by saying that “faith is a universal gift, it is the heritage of all, and so it is necessary to recover the feeling of faith beyond adherence to a certain religion.”[/quote]

[Guest JeffCR07]

Budge, it seems to me that you have forgone traditional debate styles in favor of blatant generalizations, prolonged editorials, and conclusions that are not based on fact. However, the few issues that you [i]do[/i] bring up, I will address.


[quote]When you say Jesus is the fulfillment of all archetypes you are preaching a false Jesus which is the New Age Cosmic Christ. Dashes of Jungian philosophies thrown in. Other religions have FALSE gods, they are not archetypes of truth. There is no drawing to Christ unless a person is witnessed to or knows of Him. There is no spacey oh the native in the middle of Brazilian jungle is going to figure out the exsistance of Christ. This is nonsense.
Why else did Jesus call for Christians to preach to ALL nations? [/quote]

There is no "New Age Christ" nor is their some kind of "catholic christ" there is one Jesus, who died on the cross and rose again, who is the savior of the world. Moreover, this generalization of yours contradicts scripture itself. You have yet to address the post in response to this point, which highlighted the concern of God for Ninevah, and the inherent tendency of ALL men, not just the Isrealites, who were God's chosen people, towards God.


Also, just to comment: you will probably use the issue of the buddha statue against Fatima, however, I would like to point out that it was unplanned, and was taken down as soon as people knew about it.

Now, for your only other real point:

[quote]Christians are not to have anything to do with false religions.[/quote]

1.) Christians are not to [i]participate in[/i] false religions. However, prayer is not the entirety of religion.

2.) everything that we have been discussion is focused not on "uniting Islam with Catholicism" but on "uniting Muslims with Catholics." This is not participating in their religion, but rather trying to bridge the gap that warmongers, fanatics, and senseless violence - by members of both parties, christians and non-christians - have created between us.

3.) Your fundamental presupposition is that only christians are connected to God, because non-christians are partakers of false religions, who God hates. This presupposition is false, refuted by scripture itself, for all people are created in the image of God, and so inherently tend towards him.

Just as one side note:

[quote]There is no spacey oh the native in the middle of Brazilian jungle is going to figure out the exsistance of Christ. This is nonsense.
Why else did Jesus call for Christians to preach to ALL nations?[/quote]

This is not a very intelligent argument, because its logical conclusion is that we are saved by our own knowledge. That is - only someone who intellectually knows Christ can be united to him.

This doesnt fly at all, because it logically precludes from salvation: All who have never heard the scripture, as well as, babies, children beneath the age of reason, and those born with serious mental handicaps.

Moreover, this TOO defies scripture, for we are told that we cannot see God through anything but the eyes of faith.

So faith is something deeper than our intellect. It is the natural yearning of our soul towards God, which all people have.

This does not preclude or lessen the necessity of evangelisation either. We are all called to live in imitation of Christ as best we can, and that is why the Church is so important, it allows us to follow that calling not merely in an amalgomous "yearning of the soul" way, but in an ordered way, which unifies the mind, body and soul of a person in their devotion to Christ.

I pray that Christ will soften your heart and that you will be open to the fullness of His Word, which is the Church.

Until that day, I pray for a logical, philosophical response.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[Chucho]

First, I’d like to say, Jeff, very well done in my opinion. What you said I knew needed to be addressed and I couldn’t have come close to saying it as well as you did.

Budge, I’ll try to reasonably summarize your position so that we may all understand your side of the argument. If there is anything that I say to summarize what you believe that you think is inaccurate or you think that something needs to be added, then please do so constructively.

You begin your argument by saying that the Pope is a universalist. To prove your point, you bring in many references to the Pope as well as other people of a different religion calling for peace. These specific references are:

[quote]the second Humanist Manifesto which said that the only way peace could come to the world was by all religions coming together for peace and by mankind giving up divisions

The Pope teaches that all the time too[/quote]

[quote]In today's dangerous world, he continued, there is an "urgent need" for the world's great religions to come together, in light of their "common desire that all men be purified of the hatred and evil that always threaten peace[/quote]

[quote]And that isnt even touching the ideas expressed At Assisi, that all religions are to come together for peace, and the sponsership of false religions praying to their false Gods.[/quote]

[quote]She too called for a "new world order" just like the Pope and (see article above about Pope) that "the great religions of the world should come together for peace."
When the Pope says things like this,he is at heart a Universalist with a Christian veneer.
In fact the Pope makes this clear in his encyclical “Guadium et Spes”

QUOTE
Religious differences reveal themselves as pertaining to another order…It is possible that men not be conscious of their radical unity of religion and of their insertion in the very same . But despite such divisions, they are included in the single and grand design of God in Jesus Christ, who united Himself in a certain way with every man even if he is not conscious of it[/b][/quote]

[b]Edit*:[/b] So is what you're saying is that because the Pope calls for peace in the world, he is then a universalist?

So here in the last quote you jump from an obvious need for peace among humans that the Pope calls for (which has nothing to do with a new world order) and is recognized by all logical thinking persons who pick up a newspaper, to how Catholicism truthfully declares that Jesus Christ is the Truth that all men seek directly by His uniting Himself with us. Read this last one agian carefully. I can see how these points of your argument can be assumed to be connected since only in Christ can anyone have true peace. But this is not even close to what you’re arguing so the connection seems to be more like some sort of incomplete propaganda. You also say that the Pope seeks a new world order because he seeks peace. What kind of new world order are you referring to? You seem to be saying that when the Pope is calling for peace, he simultaneously seeks a new world government. How are the two related or did I misunderstand your position? You brought archetypes into the discussion in reference to interfaith dialogues on peace. How does an archetype have anything to do with making peace?

You say that theosophy says, “Unity of all religions, mankind building archeitect of new world.”
This unity is a notion of combing, correct?

[quote]The collective Unconsciencee IS NOT A CHRISTIAN Belief nor is it BIBLICAL.
[...]
The Collective unconscience is a New Age term which means that all humans have the same spiritual "knowledge" though they may not know it on the surface.[/quote]

You have quoted from “Guadium et Spes,” “But despite such divisions, they are included in the single and grand design of God in Jesus Christ, who united Himself in a certain way with every man even if he is not conscious of it.” This is utterly Christian! By the Death and Resurrection of Christ we are united to Him who took ALL of our sins, Christian and non-Christian alike throughout time. Think about this, how could there be Truth in the world even before Christ if this were not true? This is not a New Age premise. I agree that the New Age movement is linked to Theosophy but you have failed to connect theosophy with Catholicism. You can’t bring in the human need for peace that concerns all people of all religions and say that the Pope is a Universalist. There just isn’t any consistency with that argument.

[quote]There is no drawing to Christ unless a person is witnessed to or knows of Him.[/quote]

You believe that Jesus is the Truth, correct? If what you have stated were even remotely true, then what was Aristotle doing at around 400 BC? Because on all accounts, he was searching for Truth.

[quote]The Catholic Church at every turn advances the cause of world government via the UN, I could post 20 articles from Vatican newsources where they call for the UN to do a new "constitutional engineering of mankind" to be a new moral authority for all nations and more[/quote]

Sure, I’d like to see the context of this.

[quote][quote]So do you find this combining in the Church as an authoritative practice? If not, I recommend to you to not use such references to UU and the Holy Catholic Church.[/quote]

[b]Actions count more then Words.[/b] All I know is that the inculturation movement even in things Ive researched has out and out combined Hinduism and Catholicism in India and bloodletting and animal sacrifice--African native religions mixing with Catholicism in Africa.[/quote]

"[b]Actions count more then Words.[/b]"
Well, if Actions count more then Words then let’s see your actions and let’s have that research. Then we’ll talk about Salvation.


[quote]The Bible refers to even Children of the devil. Not everyone is God's.[/quote]

And for my first evidence, I present the “conquering” Europeans in the New World from 1492 until now who were and are supposed to be Christian.

[quote]The Pope sponsered false prayer at that meeting. Even with some natives with their bottle for libations is pictured on the Vatican website. I can get link if you need it.[/quote]

That would be great.

[quote]How is praying to demons, praying to God? Im serious please answer that. You abuse the word Logos thinking every spirit and false religion leads to God. The only one beyond CHristianity that gets it part- right is Judiasm. The rest are MYSTERY BABYLON. They are praying to Satan. How blunt do I have to be?[/quote]

I abuse the word Logos in thinking that every spirit and false religion leads to God? How so? I said that Logos is Christ. God spoke a Word and it happened. It is still here in the same manner, and it is in Christ that we all have our being. Where did I ever confuse Christ with “every spirit and false religion?” Please, don’t confuse the teachings of Scripture and claim that I preach a “cosmic Jesus.” That is absurd and uncalled for. If a New Ager takes Truth and twists It for his or her own purposes in order to make a cosmic Jesus, that doesn’t mean that what they started out with was a cosmic Jesus. Neither the Pope nor I preach New Age or Manichæism. Neither of these are Christian, even if they pick and choose what they want from Christian Truth. As for “How is praying to demons, praying to God?” Would you say that a good hearted Muslim who is sincere in love and charity and the seeking of Truth is praying to a demon? He or she is most certainly praying to God the Most High in the best way they know how to.


[quote]QUOTE
Home > Press releases
  09-07-04 // 19:06h

GIULIO CIPOLLONE: “NO RELIGION IS BETTER THAN ANOTHER, IT IS JUST AN INDIVIDUAL FEELING”
This afternoon the session called “The Faith beyond religions” took place, led by the expert, Giulio Cipollone




The professor at the Universidad Pontificia Gregoriana de Roma, Giulio Cipollone, explained “faith is the bond of the human heart with a project by God about the Universe”.  Cipollone explained that faith is “the loyalty towards a belief, and today we have seen that this belief has been used to justify the religious confrontation that does not help justice in the eyes of faith”.
Cipollone said that “the faith itself links us to a particular culture and we must respect its differences from our own”.  In this way, we could say that a religion is a different reality from faith since “faith is of human making and only depends on our reaching agreement and working together for a more united world”.  The Italian professor added that “our faith helps us to be self-critical since no religion is better than another, it is merely an individual feeling”.  History has shown us there is no religion in the world that does not have to ask pardon of another.

Cipollone suggests “looking from outside to find the coherence in our own religious belief”.  To do this it is necessary to tend towards generosity, be open-minded towards other religions, sine only in this way will we be truly fair in the eyes of society and the designs of God.  “Intolerance is no good to anyone, it doesn’t help to construct justice” Cipollone added.

The professor concluded by saying that “faith is a universal gift, it is the heritage of all, and so it is necessary to recover the feeling of faith beyond adherence to a certain religion.”[/quote]

I don’t know who Giulio Cipollone is but I do know he is not a representative of the Church. You have made blatant claims that the Pope is a universalist because he seeks peace in the hearts of men. Mr. Cipollone says that “Intolerance is no good to anyone, it doesn’t help to construct justice.” So what he says is that we need to live peaceful lives in peaceful dialogue with those of other religions. This is truely a Christian expression of charity. however, he says that no religion is better than any other. This I whole heartedly disagree with. And speaking of interfaith dialogue from the links you provided on cprw.org:

[quote]July 10
The Lord of the Rings: religious background[/quote]

Whoa! They even talked about The Lord of the Rings at that event!

Edited July 25, 2004 by Chucho

[Chucho]

Also you speak of pantheism several times:

[quote]Through this idea of a supposed unconscious relationship with Jesus Christ, The Pope promotes basically a panethistic Christ through all religions[/quote]

[quote]There is no such thing as a collective unconscience-=-pantheistic too--to the Christian.[/quote]

I fail to see how the collective unconscious is pantheistic. The collective unconscious is not to allow an equallity of truth throughout religions in some "universal everything leads to God" way. It simply recognizes that elements of truth are found in other religions. This is not pantheistic. The collective unconscious does not say that archetypes are gods. In history, people recognized the archetypes and equated them to God, and this is very understandable even if this equation was inaccurate. This does not detract from the fact that the fullness of Truth is Christ Who is God.

Main Entry: pan•the•ism
Pronunciation: 'pan(t)-thE-"i-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: French panthéisme, from panthéiste pantheist, from English pantheist, from pan- + Greek theos god
1 : a doctrine that equates God with the forces and laws of the universe
2 : the worship of all gods of different creeds, cults, or peoples indifferently; also : toleration of worship of all gods (as at certain periods of the Roman empire)


[quote]Fatima but there they did HINDU ceremonies right in a church[/quote]

What ceremonies are you talking about exactly?

[Theoketos]

Though the Pope is not a Unitarian Universalist, even if he was this does not mean that the Church Proper teaches those things. Also as far as that sad event at Fatima, it may not have been right, but does that mean that the whole Church is wrong, certainly not. What it does mean is that we have much reporation to do.

[God Conquers]

How could promoting interreligious dialogue be bad budge?

I guess trying to steer people towards the Truth and towards Christ through dialogue, love and education is being a Universalist now.

[ironmonk]

The Pope is doing what the Apostle Paul did.


[b]1 Corinthians 9:19 [/b]
Although I am free in regard to all, I have made myself a slave to all so as to win over as many as possible.
[b]20 [/b]To the Jews I became like a Jew to win over Jews; to those under the law I became like one under the law--though I myself am not under the law--to win over those under the law.
[b]21 [/b]To those outside the law I became like one outside the law--though I am not outside God's law but within the law of Christ--to win over those outside the law.
[b]22 [/b]To the weak I became weak, to win over the weak. I have become all things to all, to save at least some.
[b]23 [/b]All this I do for the sake of the gospel, so that I too may have a share in it.


The Pope IS NOT a universalist. The Pope is a great example of the way Catholics should handle most things.

Don't listen to what the anti-popes have to say, actually see for yourself the writings and documents the man puts out. He's been spreading the Gospel to those who do not have it. With understanding and respect to those people.


Please read: Acts 20:29-30


God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited July 26, 2004 by ironmonk

[Budge]

Paul actually then told those people about Jesus. I witness to my atheist best friend that way.

I want you guys to go dig through interfaith Catholic events and find one instance of me where Jesus Christ is preached the pagans. Not just dialogue or lets look at Buddha but an instance where The Pope or some other high church official says...Let me tell you about Jesus. Ive read the Assisi documents its more about peace and nothing about Jesus.

Look at what is happening in mainstream Catholic America. The Catholics who are considered the good Catholics are the ones letting Buddhists chant in the Basilica, the Bad ones are the ones defending the FIrst Commandment. Of course I agree with those who protested. Ive lived near this town and its known as a conservative area.

[url="http://p201.ezboard.com/fcatholicreformationfrm18.showMessage?topicID=252.topic"]http://p201.ezboard.com/fcatholicreformati...picID=252.topic[/url]

[Guest JeffCR07]

Thats it? You're not even going to respond to even [i]one[/i] of the myriad refutations of your posts? What is more, I was going to just respond to the "facts" that you have stated, but I realisd that such a refutation has already been made over and over again. Please, try to respond to some of the counter-arguments.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[Budge]

Im not done yet, Just getting started:)
[quote]
You have quoted from “Guadium et Spes,” “But despite such divisions, they are included in the single and grand design of God in Jesus Christ, who united Himself in a certain way with every man even if he is not conscious of it.” [b]This is utterly Christian! By the Death and Resurrection of Christ we are united to Him who took ALL of our sins, Christian and non-Christian alike throughout time. [/b]Think about this, how could there be Truth in the world even before Christ if this were not true? This is not a New Age premise. I agree that the New Age movement is linked to Theosophy but you have failed to connect theosophy with Catholicism. You can’t bring in the human need for peace that concerns all people of all religions and say that the Pope is a Universalist. There just isn’t any consistency with that argument.[/quote]

Remember in the Bible it says "By Peace He shall destroy Many" Daniel 8:25

I am not impressed with the use of words, like peace and love. I consider them empty words because those in bondage to false religions will never know peace nor can they bring true peace. Only Jesus can.

As for Jesus being united to non-Christians....totally nonBiblical. Those in bondage to Allah, Vishnu, Krishna, Buddha, are NOT united to Jesus Christ. Jesus is the only way to heaven. People do not pick up on the gospel by this weird idea of OSMOSIS. This is why Jesus commanded for Christians to preach the gospel. Romans 10 says this...

That faith comes from HEARING THE GOSPEL.

People who are submitted to false Gods are not in righteousness. You all seem to believe they are. You seem to believe that people can be in righteousness and know God, through false religions. How can that be? It is simply not true.


[quote]Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 


Rom 10:3 [u][b]For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.  [/b][/u]

Rom 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness [b][u]to every one that believeth.  [/u][/b]

Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 


Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down [from above] 


Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 


Rom 10:8 [b]But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;[/b] 

(why does the Catholic Church more and more go against open preaching of the WOrd. How many Catholic street preachers are there or people who go door to door?)


Rom 10:9 [b]That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.  [/b]

(Those in false religions dont do that)

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 


Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 


Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all [b]that call upon him[/b]. 


Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 


Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 

Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 


Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 


Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. [/quote]


[quote]

QUOTE 
There is no drawing to Christ unless a person is witnessed to or knows of Him.



You believe that Jesus is the Truth, correct? If what you have stated were even remotely true, then what was Aristotle doing at around 400 BC? Because on all accounts, he was searching for Truth. [/quote]

I go by what the BIble tells me. See above.

And who cares about Aristole. See thats part of the problem the Catholic Church looks to

[quote]Sure, I’d like to see the context of this.[/quote]

Theres an old post where I talk about this. Ill try and bump it up for you.

"[quote]
And for my first evidence, I present the “conquering” Europeans in the New World from 1492 until now who were and are supposed to be Christian.[/quote]

Are you going to give me the liberal line about how evil Columbus and friends were?

Surely some were bad men but others were not. The Pilgrims were mostly Godly people seeking religious freedom.
[quote]
QUOTE 
The Pope sponsered false prayer at that meeting. Even with some natives with their bottle for libations is pictured on the Vatican website. I can get link if you need it.



That would be great.[/quote]

OK

Bottle of booze to appease the demons and all, direct Vatican link....

[url="http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/documents/travels/assisi6.html"]http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturg...ls/assisi6.html[/url]


[quote]I abuse the word Logos in thinking that every spirit and false religion leads to God? How so[/quote]?

[u][b]Do you seriously believe that all false religions are of God? And there are none authored by Satan?[/b][/u]

Satans lies in the garden are common threads to Hindusim, Buddhism, endless cults and others...

Eat of the KNOWLEDGE...

"ye shall be Gods"

Its all there in the false religions.


[quote]Would you say that a good hearted Muslim who is sincere in love and charity and the seeking of Truth is praying to a demon? He or she is most certainly praying to God the Most High in the best way they know how to.[/quote]

This is where you are beyond wrong.

They are praying a demon. The same demon, that pushed Mohammed towards writing a book of lies, the Koran that DIRECTLY denies Jesus Christ. Scripture says that is AntiChrist, demon to deny Jesus.



[quote]Whoa! They even talked about The Lord of the Rings at that event! [/quote]

Another pagan infused thing but thats for another thread.


[quote]I fail to see how the collective unconscious is pantheistic. The collective unconscious is not to allow an equallity of truth throughout religions in some "universal everything leads to God" way. It simply recognizes that elements of truth are found in other religions. [/quote]


There is no truth in false religions. A little leaven ruins the lump.
[quote]



This is not pantheistic. The collective unconscious does not say that archetypes are gods. In history, people recognized the archetypes and equated them to God, and this is very understandable even if this equation was inaccurate. This does not detract from the fact that the fullness of Truth is Christ Who is God. [/quote]

Satan is the author of most of the worlds false religions. There is no such thing as fullness of truth. Is that like being fully pregnant? There is no half way points with truth for God.

[quote]Though the Pope is not a Unitarian Universalist, even if he was this does not mean that the Church Proper teaches those things. Also as far as that sad event at Fatima, it may not have been right, but does that mean that the whole Church is wrong, certainly not. What it does mean is that we have much reporation to do. [/quote]

The Pope recently gave a foundation stone to the Fatima Shrine. He has to know what is going on there. I would think that this is some sign of approval.


[quote]How could promoting interreligious dialogue be bad budge?

I guess trying to steer people towards the Truth and towards Christ through dialogue, love and education is being a Universalist now. [/quote]

Find a time for me in any Catholic sponsered interfaith event with Cardinal or biship where JESUS IS preached and not just vague fuzzies like PEACE.

Edited July 28, 2004 by Budge

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote]People who are submitted to false Gods are not in righteousness. You all seem to believe they are. You seem to believe that people can be in righteousness and know God, through false religions. How can that be? It is simply not true.[/quote]


Ultimately, the entirety of your argument comes down to the above quote.

The problem with this argument is that you are drastically misrepresenting what Catholics say. We do [i]not[/i] say that false religions bring one into communion or allow one to "know" God. We merely acknowledge that those people in invincible ignorance of the truth can be united to Christ by following the natural law, inscribed on the hearts of all men, as best they know how. This does not in any way shape or form mean that "we don't need to evangelize" nor does it downplay the gospel.

Also, I would like to make an analogy for the pope's efforts for peace, because you seem to care so little about it.

A heretic blatantly denies Christ and is about to kill someone. By your own analogy, if I were to say to him, "Please, by whatever God you respect or whatever promise you would keep, do not kill that man" would be condemned as being UU. It is not, it is a plea for peace, and nothing more.

You also did NOT address the responses, you merely quoted someone that typed something, and then went off into an editorial about nothing related.

Please respond in an intelligable manner

[Archbishop 10-K]

I'm really not seeing what Budge is trying to prove here, what with all the incoherent ranting and all. I do know that I get bashed for bringing up Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (outside the Church there is no salvation) to any of my non-Catholic friends.