Pope John Paul Ii Is A Universalist

[Donna]

I am able to follow what Budge is saying.

[Chucho]

[quote]I am not impressed with the use of words, like peace and love. I consider them empty words because those in bondage to false religions will never know peace nor can they bring true peace. Only Jesus can.[/quote]

To you love is empty, however God is Love. This is our belief as Christians and therefore to bring the message of Christ is to bring Love and to bring Love is to bring Truth. Love and Truth are the same. Through Love we free people of other religions from their bondage. Please don’t tell me you disagree with this. It is necessary to have peace in order to bring Love. Why do you consider peace and love empty words?

[quote]As for Jesus being united to non-Christians....totally nonBiblical.[/quote]

Then let’s discuss grace. The grace of Christ is permeated throughout all of time because of His Death and Resurrection. How else was it that Saul in the book of Samuel was moved by the Spirit? Or how was Enoch lifted to heaven before the Death and Resurrection of Christ? How did the prophets prophesize? How were they able to speak in Truth if they were before the outpouring of Grace? It can only be because of grace and this grace is present in all time through the cross of Christ. These were not Christians in the OT and yet they were obviously united to Christ through His grace.

[quote]And who cares about Aristole[/quote]

You may not care, but the evidence is there that he was seeking truth. And if “There is no drawing to Christ unless a person is witnessed to or knows of Him” then Aristotle wouldn’t have been seeking for truth.

[quote]Are you going to give me the liberal line about how evil Columbus and friends were?

Surely some were bad men but others were not. The Pilgrims were mostly Godly people seeking religious freedom[/quote]

If you would like to discuss this in another thread then I wouldn’t mind a bit.

[quote]Bottle of booze to appease the demons and all, direct Vatican link[/quote]

[quote]Another thing the Pope writes is that the "Seeds of the Word "exsist in all religions, that too is a very very Universalist idea. He has even said this of Voodoo[/quote]

This picture of some people performing voodoo is not evidence that the Pope says that voodoo has the Seeds of the Word. You told me that, "The Pope sponsered false prayer at that meeting. Even with some natives with their bottle for libations is pictured on the Vatican website." So were is the sponsership?


[quote][quote]QUOTE
I abuse the word Logos in thinking that every spirit and false religion leads to God? How so[/quote]
?

Do you seriously believe that all false religions are of God? And there are none authored by Satan?[/quote]

I have never said that God founded false religions. God founded the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and no other and therefore contain all Truth. This is why I am Catholic. All other religions are founded by men. Do not misrepresent me. When I speak of men and women trying to understand the archetype, in our ignorance did we fall and were not able to fully grasp the fullness of Truth. That is why we need Christ, and that is why we need to evangelize to those still in this ignorance.

[quote]There is no such thing as fullness of truth.[/quote]

That hurts when it comes from a Christian. If Christ is not the Fullness of Truth, then there is no point to evangelize, there is no point in Christian charity or love or peace. Man, that really hurts.

[quote]The Pope recently gave a foundation stone to the Fatima Shrine. He has to know what is going on there. I would think that this is some sign of approval.[/quote]

You must be referring here to the ceremonies performed by Hindis that you allegedly claim. However, you still haven’t answered my question, “What [Hindu] ceremonies are you talking about exactly?” that were performed in a church at Fatima. I don’t know what’s going on there and would like to be informed on this.

[quote]Find a time for me in any Catholic sponsered interfaith event with Cardinal or biship where JESUS IS preached and not just vague fuzzies like PEACE.[/quote]

Among intolerant, indifferent religions, peace is the first step. Nothing will be acomplished without peace.
From the Day of prayer for peace in the world at Assisi on 24 January 2002
[url="http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/documents/ns_lit_doc_20020124_assisi-celebrazione_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturg...razione_en.html[/url]:
2. An evangelical witness for all

The message and the gift of peace which Jesus bequeathed to his disciples have become ever more necessary in this time. Christians know this. The whole message of the Old and New Testaments is interspersed with references to peace with God and with our brothers and sisters. As Paul writes: “He is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility... that he might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross... He came and preached peace... and through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father” (cf. Eph 2:14-18).

Here we can see it is our Christian duty to bring peace to the world. You constantly attack the Pope for trying to bring peace in the world and yet this is his duty as a Christian. Who better to bring peace to the world than Christians who know of the true source of peace so as to bring that Source to others who have not?

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Chucho' date='Jul 29 2004, 06:35 PM']
This picture of some people performing voodoo is not evidence that the Pope says that voodoo has the Seeds of the Word. You told me that, "The Pope sponsered false prayer at that meeting. Even with some natives with their bottle for libations is pictured on the Vatican website." So were is the sponsership?



[/quote]
Where? These people were invited by the Pope into Catholic builings to pray to their "gods" for peace. Pagan worship services were conducted in buildings (or on ground) consecrated as Catholic buildings (convents, etc). These people violated the first commandment by worshiping false gods. Vodoo is a demonic religion. They were invited (by the Vatican) to pray to their gods (which are most vertainly demons) for peace (what irony??). How is that not Vatican sanctioning (or sponsorship) of the violation of the commandment? This is sacriledge.

[PedroX]

The Lord of the Rings is not pagan infused.

Oh no, my precious, they're onto us!

I told you to quit looking so pagan infused!

We can'ts helps it our precious....

peace....

[Chucho]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Jul 29 2004, 10:26 PM']Where?  These people were invited by the Pope into Catholic builings to pray to their "gods" for peace.  Pagan worship services were conducted in buildings (or on ground) consecrated as Catholic buildings (convents, etc).  These people violated the first commandment by worshiping false gods.  Vodoo is a demonic religion. They were invited (by the Vatican) to pray to their gods (which are most vertainly demons) for peace (what irony??).  How is that not Vatican sanctioning (or sponsorship) of the violation of the commandment?  This is sacriledge.[/quote]
Alright, I concede. I had to do a lot of thinking on this point and I suppose that I was so concentrated on matters of peace that I lost grasp of the elements in the purpose. I agree; after reading up on what happened and not just what was said at Assisi, this act of encouraging prayer from false religions is not in accord with Christian principles and should not have been done. Thank you for pointing this out to me.

While I believe that the Pope’s many attempts to bring social peace to those of different religions are noble Christian acts, I do not agree and do not support the manner in which it was meant to be accomplished at Assisi. With my whole heart, I apologize to those who have read that part of my post and thought I was blindly defending a wrong doing. This was not my intention. However, I do support and affirm the need for peace in our world among those of different religions since no one will accept the message if they don’t accept the messenger.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Chucho' date='Jul 30 2004, 02:05 AM']
However, I do support and affirm the need for peace in our world among those of different religions since no one will accept the message if they don’t accept the messenger. [/quote]
There is much truth to this. We must pray for peace and I have no question that the intentions of many of those who planned that event were good. But peace cannot come at the expense of truth. On those terms, it will only be a false peace. But you are right here. If they shoot the messenger, it is hard to get them to listen to the message.

[universal]

If one reads every single statement of the Pope out of context of the body of his works then one is like a protestant reading scripture and misinterpreting it based on one's false assumptions and the lack of the context of scripture (that is Sacred Tradition).

PJPII is no unitarianist. If you read even a few of his writings you could tell.

Edited July 30, 2004 by universal

[Budge]

Ah perhaps the Pope is just following Vatican 2...

From the UUs.

[url="http://www.uunashua.org/100q/c2.shtml#q25"]http://www.uunashua.org/100q/c2.shtml#q25[/url]
[quote]
[b]What is your attitude toward other religious faiths such as Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism?[/b][u]We believe there is wisdom in most, if not all, of the world's religions[/u] We feel each is valuable for what it can tell us about ourselves and our world, and how its members find religious meaning and direction.[/quote]

From the Catholics:

[url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_council...-aetate_en.html[/url]


[quote][u]The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions [/u]She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men[/quote]


What they passed out to people at Assisi:

[url="http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/documents/travels/assisi14.html"]http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturg...s/assisi14.html[/url]

IN the UU church no service starts without the lighting of the chalice. Ive been in three due to moving, it is mandated in order of service. In fact its even the logo.

Edited July 30, 2004 by Budge

[Budge]

will answer more later

[Theoketos]

There is a substantial deifference in both world view and idealogy with in the above quotes.

The U.U. from what I understand says that all relegions are equal becuase they have truthes. This does not make sense at all, thanks in part to the principal of non -contridiction.

The Church teaches that she is the fullness of the Truth, and that all truth will lead to Jesus, through her. And that if men possess any truth it is becuase God has graced them with it.

So certain religions teach that killing and war and rape are bad. They should teach that. Some religions teach that modesty and marriage are good, they should continue to teach that. They should continue then to work out what is really true.

[quote]The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men.[/quote]

If they continue to do that, with an honest heart, they will be lead to Rome, to Christ, and to Heaven.

IT kind of sounds like St. Paul in 1 Cor 9:22

[quote]To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.[/quote]

That is what Vatican II is saying and that is what the Pope is proposing.

[Theoketos]

[quote]If one reads every single statement of the Pope out of context of the body of his works then one is like a protestant reading scripture and misinterpreting it based on one's false assumptions and the lack of the context of scripture (that is Sacred Tradition).

PJPII is no unitarianist. If you read even a few of his writings you could tell.
[/quote]

Back it up.