Why I'm Not Catholic

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

You'll have one of those [b]ban[/b]ners in no time.

[dairygirl4u2c]

"God says use your free will to follow me or you will burn in hell." If you follow a traditional Catholic understanding of this, I think I might say God's freewill is fascism.

If you follow a more current Catholic understanding, hell is not making you suffer, it's allowing you to do what you want even though you're truly ignorant to how life could be better. But you're not suffereing per se. Like the Pope said, hell is not so much fire and brimestone as it is being away from God. And remember that God is love. Figure it out. And I agree with that!

But then it depends on what Catholic you ask and I think where to find the stance on this is unclear to like everyone here at least. Maybe this is something that you can believe what you want until it's later doctrinally developed and defined.

Edited July 23, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[Justified Saint]

That didn't make too much sense.

[Chris Zewe]

^Well put

[dairygirl4u2c]

Sorry. What's confusing? Or is it too untenably overwheling to even begin to try to understand it?

Edited July 23, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[Justified Saint]

I guess any valid point you make is overshadowed by you constant double guessing and marginalizing of anything Catholic.

[Quietfire]

[quote]"God says use your free will to follow me or you will burn in hell." If you follow a traditional Catholic understanding of this, I think I might say God's freewill is fascism.[/quote]

Is the first part a quote from someone here, and if so, why would someone's personal feeling on a situation or topic be a party to this one?
How is God's free will facism, as compared to Catholic understanding?

[quote]If you follow a more current Catholic understanding, hell is not making you suffer, it's allowing you to do what you want even though you're truly ignorant to how life could be better. But you're not suffereing per se. Like the Pope said, hell is not so much fire and brimestone as it is being away from God. And remember that God is love. Figure it out. And I agree with that![/quote]

First of all, Hell is separation from God. If God is the answer to every dream you could ever imagine(per se), then living eternity without God is hell. How could that not be suffering? That would be the worst torture ever imagined. And all because you chose it, for yourself. Knowing this and yet still sinning is not ignorance, its downright insanity.
Choosing God is choosing love.

[quote]But then it depends on what Catholic you ask and I think where to find the stance on this is unclear to like everyone here at least. Maybe this is something that you can believe what you want until it's later doctrinally developed and defined.[/quote]

Your last sentence is what ticked me off somewhat. It seems that because you think you know everything that there is to know in the Scripture, then it isnt possible to learn something new, or come to a better understanding of something specific. This is also insanity, plain and simple.

I dont claim to know everything, and I welcome new insights in understanding, whether it's Scripture or anything else. Your way of thought is the same as thinking the world is flat and nothing anyone can say will change your mind. And dont claim that you dont think like that, because when you make statements like the one you just did, that's exactly what it means. All thats missing is the stomping of feet and red face.

I am sorry for you if every Catholic doesnt agree with every other Catholic. This may mean to you that the Church isnt universal. To me it confirms she is. The fact that many Catholics see hell as different doesnt mean that they are all wrong, yet you complain that they cant agree, or that they are all waiting for the final word from Rome.
If every Catholic held the same exact thought on hell, then you'd accuse them of being brainwashed, or simply following orders from the Holy Pontiff and the Magisterium, like sheep to the slaughter.

Geez, no one can win in your book, huh?

I rather like the fact that there are still alot of unanswered questions. I also am glad that the Church hasnt defined everything in Scripture. I cannot imagine that it would take only 2000 years to figure God out. That would really limit him, dont cha think? I am glad that SOMEONE is willing to admit that there are many mysteries that we just arent ready to understand.

If anyone told me that they've got an answer for everything in Scripture, I'd start running the opposite direction. They'd be putting themselves up there with the big guy and that just doesnt cut it with me.

So do me a favor, and cut the carp with the comments about the Church. The fact that she admits that not everything in Scripture is definable as yet should be a relief to you. It means we still have much to learn. Together.

Peace.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' date='Jul 23 2004, 09:23 AM'] Don't feel left out. As soon as our admin sees this thread you're sure to get "said sign"--meanwhile we all already know you don't rep the Church so its not like we need to see the sign as a warning. :rotfl: [/quote]
I think he should get a sign all his own. Perhaps he should be called, "Neo-pagan" or "Wiccan." I believe that he's earned that honor, because of his insightful carrot comment at the beginning of this thread. After all, Wiccans worship nature itself, and since Wicca is a form of animism, it is quite possible that some of them even worship the life force present in carrots.

Edited July 23, 2004 by Apotheoun

[phatcatholic]

dairygirl,

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Jul 23 2004, 01:25 PM'] "God says use your free will to follow me or you will burn in hell." If you follow a traditional Catholic understanding of this, I think I might say God's freewill is fascism. [/quote]
where did that quote come from? also, define what you think the "traditional catholic understanding" is

[quote]If you follow a more current Catholic understanding, hell is not making you suffer, it's allowing you to do what you want even though you're truly ignorant to how life could be better. But you're not suffereing per se. Like the Pope said, hell is not so much fire and brimestone as it is being away from God. And remember that God is love. Figure it out. And I agree with that! [/quote]but, separation from God IS suffering, it is the worse possible kind. i don't think any catholic would deny that hell is a place of suffering

[quote]But then it depends on what Catholic you ask and I think where to find the stance on this is unclear to like everyone here at least. Maybe this is something that you can believe what you want until it's later doctrinally developed and defined.[/quote]where have we ever presented ourselves as confused on this issue?

you confuse me to no end. i never know where you are coming from half the time. where do u come up w/ this stuff?

???

Edited July 23, 2004 by phatcatholic

[MichaelFilo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 23 2004, 06:38 PM'] I think he should get a sign all his own.  Perhaps he should be called, "Neo-pagan" or "Wiccan."  I believe that he's earned that honor, because of his insightful carrot comment at the beginning of this thread.  After all, Wiccans worship nature itself, and since they are a form of animism, it is quite possible that some of them even worship the life force present in carrots. [/quote]
I'd be suprised if Chris knew about life forces. The farthest I get with him is, "All you know about the Wiccan is they are dirty witches who need burning" or something to that effect. It really doesn't help to tell him I have Wiccan friends, and I can only go by what their religious practices are. All the same, carrots taste good, I like the bigger ones, the baby carrots make me really thirsty and disappear to fast .

God bless,

Michael Filo

Edited July 23, 2004 by MichaelFilo

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Jul 23 2004, 11:25 AM']"God says use your free will to follow me or you will burn in hell." If you follow a traditional Catholic understanding of this, I think I might say God's freewill is fascism.

If you follow a more current Catholic understanding, hell is not making you suffer, it's allowing you to do what you want even though you're truly ignorant to how life could be better. But you're not suffereing per se. Like the Pope said, hell is not so much fire and brimestone as it is being away from God. And remember that God is love. Figure it out. And I agree with that!

But then it depends on what Catholic you ask and I think where to find the stance on this is unclear to like everyone here at least. Maybe this is something that you can believe what you want until it's later doctrinally developed and defined.[/quote]
Daisy, I'm sure you meant well, but your grasp of Catholic doctrine is weak at best.

The Catholic Church has always held, and still holds, that a man has free will and can choose between various courses of action in the [i]natural[/i] order. But it has also taught that free will can be abused, and that free will is not the power to do whatever you want, but is the right to do what you ought. It is about choosing the good. To choose that which is evil is not freedom, but slavery. [cf. John 8:34] So, although man has this ability to choose courses of action that are evil in their end ([i]finis[/i]), it is a waste of his being, and ultimately it is self-destructive because it can never fulfill his existence. To choose evil is to choose [i]nothing[/i] over [i]being[/i], because evil is a negation of the good.

The Church also teaches that free will, without the aid of grace, cannot rightly choose those actions leading to salvation, i.e., actions that are properly speaking [i]supernatural[/i] and not merely [i]natural[/i]. But once grace is received and man is put into a state of sanctifying grace, then, and only then, can he choose those actions that will merit eternal life. Thus, it is grace empowering him to act at all times, for the good of his being, and as a consequence man's actions in the [i]supernatural[/i] order are truly his own actions, but they are also God's actions, in, with, and through him. [cf. Phil. 2:12-13; cf. Eph. 2:10]

Edited July 23, 2004 by Apotheoun

[Joseph]

IQ of a carrot? Hmm.....Guess that's why I chose to join the church out of my own free will. If only I could have the IQ of a cucumber, maybe I could get straight A's next semester.

One religion I don't understand is Wicca/Pagan beliefs.....how in the world do they make any sense? Someone give me a good explanation of why you should be Wiccan. There is none.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='Chris Zewe' date='Jul 23 2004, 10:53 AM'] I posted on this "phorum" because a friend of mine told me that I'd get an "I Do Not Rep. The Church" sign by my name. He also said it was "really 1337". Having posted here, I do not see said sign. And I'd really rather not debate with people who think that explicit lesbian scenes in films are a sign that we're racing towards the apocalypse. I also like people who support free will over mindless following of a religious body. Out. [/quote]
I do not that any particular movie seen is a sign of the apocalypse, that really is more a protestant thing any way.

Also

Free will and free thinking is a coner stone of the Church.

That is all.

[picchick]

[quote name='Chris Zewe' date='Jul 23 2004, 11:27 AM'] But the only reason I came here was to get the beaver dam sign @@... [/quote]
Wow.


















And to think that I didn't want the "sign"















Still don't!!

[Theoketos]

Chris, we love you! No really, I would give my life for you, and so did Jesus.

[jasJis]

Chris,
I like the fact that you have stated that you don't believe in blindly following other's beliefs. I agree with you 100% that we are to form our own conscience. The Catholic Church agrees with you too. [u][b]BUT[/b][/u] you cannot choose to ignore other facts, logic, and reasonableness when forming your opinion and making a decision of conscience. For your benefit (and dairy's), here is a brief synopsis of what the Church teaches about forming a conscience. It's from the Catechism, which is available on-line. You can use the links in the Reading Room on this site to hook up with it.

[quote]IN BRIEF
1795 "Conscience is man's most secret core, and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths" (GS 16).
1796 Conscience is a judgment of reason by which the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act.
1797 For the man who has committed evil, the verdict of his conscience remains a pledge of conversion and of hope.
[b]1798 A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. Everyone must avail himself of the means to form his conscience. [/b]
1799 Faced with a moral choice, conscience can make either a right judgment in accordance with reason and the divine law or, on the contrary, an erroneous judgment that departs from them.
[b]1800 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience.
1801 Conscience can remain in ignorance or make erroneous judgments. Such ignorance and errors are not always free of guilt. [/b]
1802 The Word of God is a light for our path. We must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. This is how moral conscience is formed. [/quote]Christ's Peace be with you.

[Chris Zewe]

I don't [i]have[/i] a conscience, though. Thus, God's voice can't echo anywhere.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]Maybe this is something that you can believe what you want until it's later doctrinally developed and defined.[/quote]

I did mean that with some sinerity. But then it was half said out of sarcasm. Don't ask me to explain all that, I'm a girl what do you want from me??

The sincere part came in that I do understand that development is good and anything apart from that is probably evil. Development is good for the Church, I'm just not too sure about it occuring in a legitimate infallible way as occuring in the Catholic Church according to the Catholic Church. (amoung other things I'm not too sure about but those are other threads all together)

The sarcasm came because I don't see a legitimate infallible development occuring in the Catholic Church. Because of words such as what ever pope it was that said that those who die outside of the Catholic Church (in either the general or limited sense.. I will explain if you want) will something to the effect "go to the fire and brimestone prepared by the devil and his angels".

Even though when I typed that statement, I meant it more sincerly than sarcastically, right now I'd go for sarcastic. I know it's double think, but what can you expect, Catholics do it all the time, and as a former Catholic, I know firsthand how I and my fellow RCs did it. Take that infallibe statement about going to the place prepared for the devil or saying that non Catholics cannot be saved and then changing it. You might argue that you could technically develop onto that stuff, but just look at the wording, or look at the Traditionalists who oppose Vatican II. Did RCs drift from the intent or the purposeful ambiguity of the popes who said "no salvation outside of the Catholic Church"? By looking at what was wrote itself, I would think not. That wouldn't even hold up in a court of law because it denied the intent of the law. (but then in our system you could just change the law but let's stay focused)

Maybe the concept of hell or the concept of the Catholic Church is all that matters and everything else is personal beliefs held by the pope? I don't know, it seems fishy trying rationalize it because you can rationalize anything to make them mean things completely different than they originally did. But enough of my ranting.

We're all guilty of double think; I just don't want to make a religion out of it.. (now cue your rants)

Edited July 24, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[catholicguy]

Dairy Girl, the Church teaches that there are two pains of Hell: pain of suffering and pain of loss. Your post above asserts that justice is the same as facism. That is completely erroneous. In any event, the Pope's personal opinions are not important. He cannot re-interpret the Church's teaching simply because he wants to. If the Pope ever said something like what you wrote above, he would be wrong and would be contradicting Church teaching. He would be wrong at best and a heretic at worst. This does not change the Church's teaching. You cannot re-interpret the Church's teaching. Those in Hell feel the pain of burning in Hell, the fires of Hell, as well as the pain of loss of God because they are separated from him. What you stated was a Modernist "interpretation" of Church teaching. It is not an interpretation; it is heresy. Those who believe this are wrong at best, heretics at worst. This is not Church teaching. God bless.

[DancesforLove]

:rotfl:
Silly Flowery!