Zwergel88's Explanation!

[MichaelFilo]

Zwergel is staunchly pro-Kerry. I really want to know why. I have heard here on PM that the pope said that the sin is mortal. I'll be voting in about 2 years as well. Neither of my parents like Bush, and Zwergel is against the masses on this one, so can I ask why? Usually when the PM folk agree on something it makes it pretty clear as to weather it is right or wrong.

This is an honest question. I'd just like to know why you'd vote Kerry in the light of it being a mortal sin, or am I wrong about you guys saying that ( saying it in the light of what JPII said.).

Sorry for the trouble,

God bless

[picchick]

I don't remember the pope saying that it was a mortal sin to vote for Kerry.

[M.SIGGA]

Our American ideology of "unalienable freedoms" and Catholicism contradict one another every once in awhile and people get confused sometimes.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='picchick' date='Jul 31 2004, 07:27 PM'] I don't remember the pope saying that it was a mortal sin to vote for Kerry. [/quote]
Doesn't have to, I think that it's already been stated.

[traichuoi]

seeing that the death penalty is another non-negotiable, wouldn't it also be imprudent to vote for Bush?

[MC Just]

Why cant people just accept the Church's teaching on it? Why must people think just because they are american that there are exceptions? There are no exceptions. American doesnt make you any better than anyone else in the world. If your catholic, no matter where you are, you are under the pope...

Edited August 1, 2004 by MC Just

[Aloysius]

Catholics may have varying opinions in regard to the death penalty or specific wars goin on, but may never ever ever have the opinion that it is alright for abortion to be legal. Kerry actively works to not only sustain the "right" to abortion but even works to expand funding for it, make it possible for children to have abortions without parental consent, and fuels the culture of death through almost all of his votes. he votes against protecting the unborn from their mothers or from outside agressors. he is not in line with Catholic Teaching on any one of his policies, except a minor possibility that his economic policy might somewhat be in line with social justice. first off: economic policy is secondary. second of: his economic policy is not the only choice for a Catholic. John Kerry is anti-Catholic, anti-God. just tellin it like it is. A Catholic may not in good conscience vote for him.

I donno what the pope said, but this is what the teaching of the Church affirmed by several bishops and especially by Cardinal Ratzinger says.

[traichuoi]

i figured it was imprudent to vote for Kerry but i feel a little stuck in a catch-22 since Bush is pro-war and pro-death penalty (a non-negotiable like abortion)


so, how's Nader?? lol


btw, zwergel also supports homosexual marriages...

[Aloysius]

death penalty and war is NOT a non-negotiable (at least according to the Bride of Christ)

Cardinal Ratzinger said Catholics can have a variety of opinions in regards to a specific war going on or the application of the death penalty.

here's a good artical about the death penalty by Avery Cardinal Dulles: [url="http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0104/articles/dulles.html"]http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0104...les/dulles.html[/url]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='traichuoi' date='Jul 31 2004, 06:29 PM'] seeing that the death penalty is another non-negotiable, wouldn't it also be imprudent to vote for Bush? [/quote]
Recourse by the State to the death penalty is morally permissible, and Cardinal Ratzinger recently reaffirmed this constant teaching of the Church in his letter to the US Bishops on pro-abortion "Catholic" politicians. Here is what he said:

"Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia." [Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, [u]Letter to the US Bishops on Communion[/u], no. 3]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='traichuoi' date='Jul 31 2004, 06:46 PM'] btw, zwergel also supports homosexual marriages... [/quote]
I hope that is not case, but if it is, it is truly sad.

[MichaelFilo]

Guys, you should spend 4-5 hours straight in adoration. I think I should tell everyone that.

As far as the death penalty, there was an excelent thread on it, and I think someone changed their views on it. It is however negotiable, but the church backs it up, so you know, I'd be on her side as much as possible if I can.

I'm still wondering about Zwergel though. I'll have to admit, the real reason I'm asking is to know why you feel you are above Catholic teaching, and if it is true you are for gay "marriages" as suspected then I'd hav eto ask for ag ood reason why. I'm not exactly looking for anything more than a good reason why.

God Bless,

Michael

[M.SIGGA]

Answer this scenario, if someone lives in a red state that will definitly come out with Bush on top no matter what, unless Bush is caught in a last minute [i]Clintonesque[/i] scandle, does it matter if a Catholic democrat in those states votes democrat? The reality is there are definite blue states and definite red states and a few that swing. If you are in the Deep South, Texas, or the Midwest, Bush is going to win the state regardless if the blue votes turn out or not.

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

I think it's a misunderstanding of freedom of conscience that has given us so many Catholic politicians who are very unfaithful to the teachings of Christ.

The pro-Kerry Catholics probably misunderstand the whole concept of freedom of conscience and doing what your conscience tells you. Your conscience is what makes you morally conscious. Your mind is what makes you mentally conscious. Your mind may be dominant and make the decisions, but you must ultimately listen to your conscience, which should be well informed by now that abortion and voting for someone who supports abortion is wrong. If you try to decide otherwise, it's your mind acting as an outside force that keeps you from listening to your conscience.

[MichaelFilo]

[quote name='M.SIGGA' date='Aug 1 2004, 01:20 AM'] Answer this scenario, if someone lives in a red state that will definitly come out with Bush on top no matter what, unless Bush is caught in a last minute [i]Clintonesque[/i] scandle, does it matter if a Catholic democrat in those states votes democrat? The reality is there are definite blue states and definite red states and a few that swing. If you are in the Deep South, Texas, or the Midwest, Bush is going to win the state regardless if the blue votes turn out or not. [/quote]
You have overlooked one thing. By voting democrat as far as presidents go, aren't you supporting abortion? I do believe you are. While in the end it may not matter as to whom you vote for, the fact that you were in support matters. If we were talking on a secular level your arguement would be semi-valid, but it's really not on the moral level.

[M.SIGGA]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Aug 1 2004, 12:51 AM'] You have overlooked one thing. By voting democrat as far as presidents go, aren't you supporting abortion? I do believe you are. While in the end it may not matter as to whom you vote for, the fact that you were in support matters. If we were talking on a secular level your arguement would be semi-valid, but it's really not on the moral level. [/quote]
agreeable

[MichaelFilo]

[quote]agreeable  [/quote]

Well thats a load off. No offense, it's just in the Kerry is the Antichrist thread ( which has a funny name ) you kinda seemed like, you have to really put some thought into this. And I was all like, I'd do it, but ya know, somethings the Church just says no to. anyways, rambling.

God bless,

Mikey

[traichuoi]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 31 2004, 07:53 PM'] death penalty and war is NOT a non-negotiable (at least according to the Bride of Christ)

Cardinal Ratzinger said Catholics can have a variety of opinions in regards to a specific war going on or the application of the death penalty.

here's a good artical about the death penalty by Avery Cardinal Dulles: [url="http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0104/articles/dulles.html"]http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0104...les/dulles.html[/url] [/quote]
in the "Voter's Guide for Serious Catholics" death penalty is a non-negotiable isn't it? unless i'm wrong, that's what i thought i read.

i didn't say war either, i only meant the death penalty...

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='traichuoi' date='Aug 1 2004, 12:56 AM'] in the "Voter's Guide for Serious Catholics" death penalty is a non-negotiable isn't it?  unless i'm wrong, that's what i thought i read. 

i didn't say war either, i only meant the death penalty... [/quote]
The right of the State to execute a criminal is a part of the immutable natural moral law, and thus no power on earth can declare the death penalty in itself to be immoral. The Church can ask that public authorities limit themselves to non-lethal means when punishing a criminal, but the right of the State to execute a criminal remains intact and is unchangeable. That is why Cardinal Ratzinger stated that Catholics who support the death penalty may receive Holy Communion. Let me quote once again what Cardinal Ratzinger said:

"[b][i]Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia[/i][/b]. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of [b][i]capital punishment[/i][/b] or on the decision to wage war, [b][i]he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion[/i][/b]. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. [b][i]There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, [u]but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia[/u][/i][/b]." [Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, [u]Letter to the US Bishops on Communion[/u], no. 3]

The Church has always distinguished between the absolute right to life of every [i]innocent[/i] human being, and the right of the State to execute criminals because of the heinous nature of the crimes that they have committed. This distinction is a part of the immutable natural moral law and divine revelation. [cf. Romans 13:1-5] Thus, no power on earth, not even the Church's Magisterium, can change this fact.

Clearly then, a Catholic can vote for a politician who supports the judicious use of the death penalty.

Edited August 1, 2004 by Apotheoun

[picchick]

Abortion aside, there is many other reasons that I do not support Kerry.

1. He is a weak man thus demonstrated by his inconsistences.

He says that he is pro-life but does not want to force that on anyone else. He stated within the past few months that he belives the life of a person begins at conception. O.K. If he believes that this is correct and true then why does he not standing up for it? It isn't like he believes that pro-choice is the right thing. To me, if you cannot stand up for what you believe and know as true then you are a weak person who will be easily swayed by popular opinion.
He also has said that he was against the war in Iraq but then said he wasn't. So which is it?

2. He takes all that Bush has done and says that he will do better than that. O.k. What will you do differently and how will you accomplish it? I know that he doesn't want to give specifics but it is possible not to and still answer the quesiton.