Zwergel88's Explanation!

[MC Just]

There is a big misunderstanding of what freedom is in this country. Look at canada, they are totally free. Yet you do not see all the abominations and chaos there. They must be doing something right. Yet at the same time america claims it's the only free country in the world.. ok so in other words, if a country doesnt have legalized abortion, homosexual marriages and a obession with pornography and violence it's not free?

Edited August 1, 2004 by MC Just

[Aloysius]

CANADA is your example!!???

they're worse. you can get arrested for "hate speech" simply for speaking out against homosexuality

they don't allow Fox News and last I heard they also didn't allow EWTN

they do have legalized abortion. they either have or are working on having legalized same sex marriage. and I'm sure they have pornography and violence as well. Canada is one of my least favorite countries in the whole world.

[nikkan_hanil]

zwerg is a girl.

[traichuoi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Aug 1 2004, 04:01 AM'] The right of the State to execute a criminal is a part of the immutable natural moral law, and thus no power on earth can declare the death penalty in itself to be immoral. The Church can ask that public authorities limit themselves to non-lethal means when punishing a criminal, but the right of the State to execute a criminal remains intact and is unchangeable. That is why Cardinal Ratzinger stated that Catholics who support the death penalty may receive Holy Communion. Let me quote once again what Cardinal Ratzinger said:

"[b][i]Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia[/i][/b]. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of [b][i]capital punishment[/i][/b] or on the decision to wage war, [b][i]he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion[/i][/b]. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. [b][i]There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, [u]but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia[/u][/i][/b]." [Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, [u]Letter to the US Bishops on Communion[/u], no. 3]

The Church has always distinguished between the absolute right to life of every [i]innocent[/i] human being, and the right of the State to execute criminals because of the heinous nature of the crimes that they have committed. This distinction is a part of the immutable natural moral law and divine revelation. [cf. Romans 13:1-5] Thus, no power on earth, not even the Church's Magisterium, can change this fact.

Clearly then, a Catholic can vote for a politician who supports the judicious use of the death penalty. [/quote]
thanks Apotheoun...i like the way you write!

reveals Truth so well...

[Rocco]

I must have missed something: When did the Pope say that it was a mortal sin to support someone who worked for the death penalty? St. Thomas stated that if an individual commits a crime and poses a threat to society(the people who are working toward heaven) he/she has waived the rights of a person and can be put to death with out sin. I also remind readers that very few criminals are put to death via the death penalty. By the time that a criminal is put to death in our society they(the criminal) has had plenty of time to repent and make a good confession. So refusing to vote for George Bush because he supports the death penalty is crazy. Think about all the terrible things kerry has done but yet we as Catholics are hung up on who to vote for because Bush supports the death penalty. It is my opinion that a Catholic who supports John Kerry is not a solid, well grounded Catholic!

Rocco

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Rocco' date='Aug 1 2004, 03:42 PM'] I must have missed something: When did the Pope say that it was a mortal sin to support someone who worked for the death penalty?  St. Thomas stated that if an  individual commits a crime and poses a threat to society(the people who are working toward heaven) he/she has waived the rights of a person and can be put to death with out sin.  I also remind readers that very few criminals are put to death via the death penalty.  By the time that a criminal is put to death in our society they(the criminal) has had plenty of time to repent and make a good confession.  So refusing to vote for George Bush because he supports the death penalty is crazy.  Think about all the terrible things kerry has done but yet we as Catholics are hung up on who to vote for because Bush supports the death penalty.  It is my opinion that a Catholic who supports John Kerry is not a solid, well grounded Catholic!

Rocco [/quote]
That was precisely my point, the Pope has never said, nor can he say, that supporting the death penalty is intrinsically immoral, because the right of the State to execute a criminal is a part of the natural moral law and divine revelation. The Magisterium is the guarding of the [i]depositum fidei[/i], and so it has no power to alter what has been revealed, nor can the Magisterium change the immutable natural moral law. Now, it is true that the Pope has asked that the public authorities restrict punishment to non-lethal means when this is possible, but this prudential judgment of the Pope does not mean that the State can never execute a criminal. Thus, a Catholic can support a politician who advocates the judicious use of the death penalty. But a Catholic can never support a person who advocates the crimes of abortion and euthanasia.

As for your concluding remark, "It is my opinion that a Catholic who supports John Kerry is not a solid, well grounded Catholic," I agree with you. I don't see how a Catholic who understands his faith could vote for a man who supports as a "right" under law, the murder of the innocent, through the crimes of abortion and euthanasia, or who supports stem cell research using the remains of aborted children, or who supports homosexual marriage, or protections under law for deviant sexual behavior, etc.; to vote for such a man would be a grave sin.

God bless,
Todd

Edited August 2, 2004 by Apotheoun

[MC Just]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 1 2004, 11:59 AM'] CANADA is your example!!???

they're worse.  you can get arrested for "hate speech" simply for speaking out against homosexuality

they don't allow Fox News and last I heard they also didn't allow EWTN

they do have legalized abortion.  they either have or are working on having legalized same sex marriage.  and I'm sure they have pornography and violence as well.  Canada is one of my least favorite countries in the whole world. [/quote]
Last I heard, some places in Canada you can actually leave your doors unlocked. (Try doing that here and your whole house will disapear.) You flick on the tv there and it's not any where near as bad as it is here. I'm not saying the place is perfect, i'm saying it's not as bad. I also heard that they are trying to get homosexual marriages there, they dont have em yet.

Edited August 2, 2004 by MC Just

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Aug 1 2004, 01:39 PM'] There is a big misunderstanding of what freedom is in this country. Look at canada, they are totally free. Yet you do not see all the abominations and chaos there. They must be doing something right. Yet at the same time america claims it's the only free country in the world.. ok so in other words, if a country doesnt have legalized abortion, homosexual marriages and a obession with pornography and violence it's not free? [/quote]
Totally FREE??
This is the country that can fine you for quoting the BIBLE on homosexuality in a newspaper.
Canadians do not have free speech.

[MC Just]

ok i didnt know that.

[MC Just]

I'll just shutup now..

[M.SIGGA]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Aug 1 2004, 01:21 AM']
Well thats a load off. No offense, it's just in the Kerry is the Antichrist thread ( which has a funny name ) you kinda seemed like, you have to really put some thought into this. And I was all like, I'd do it, but ya know, somethings the Church just says no to. anyways, rambling.

God bless,

Mikey [/quote]
I'm speaking now as a grounded Catholic, and I didn't used to be one. That "red/blue state" post was just a scenario I threw out for the sake of it - I just wanted to see what other people think.

[God Conquers]

Canada is a leader in promoting the Culture of death worldwide. Many Catholics and Christians will be going to jail in the coming years for their faith and position on homosexuality, abortion and other issues. I envy many of you Americans and can't understand how some of you could not try to stem the tide of an advancing culture of death. (i.e Kerry)

We are not free. We might not have a lot of crime (far too polite) and be "non-violent" (our military is too dilapidated to wage war) but we are not free.

[Socrates]

I'll repeat here what I said in a post in the movie phorum. (It's more relevant here.)

All I can say concerning posts by people supporting Sen. Kerry, is that if even self-proclaimed pro-life Catholics support politicians such as Kerry who openly and shamelessly and blatantly support all aspects of the Culture of Death, God help us all! The modern national Democratic Party is all about promoting abortion, homsexuality, human bioengineering, and all forms of immorality.

Whatever you think about Bush and the Iraq war (I do believe he has his faults), at least Bush will pass pro-life legislation that gets past the Dems in the Senate. Kerry will strike down any curbs on abortion and will appoint more actively pro-abort judges! Kerry will only solidify the Culture of Death in American government.

If you truly and sincerely believe Bush is absolutely no good for the pro-life cause, at least vote for a pro-life alternative candidate, or refrain from voting (though I believe this will only help Kerry).

Supporting Kerry and his ilk is unacceptable!
And Catholics who vote for such politicians have no right to complain about the Culture of Death in America. They are part of the problem, not part of the solution!

Remember, All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.