Why Does God Require Worship?

[carrdero]

Apotheoun writes: Now, what I am asking from you, is that you give a rational proof that backs up your personal opinions about this "god" of yours. Is your "god" necessary being? Is your "god" the uncaused cause? Is your "god" the unmoved mover?

I can’t help shake the feeing that I just finished watching a Woody Allen film. I have a “jist” at what you are saying but I could use more clarification into actually what you are requesting. Apotheoun if you could take those questions above and give some laymen examples maybe I could offer some insight. I also may be able to offer reasonable examples of why I feel like that. Also please include your version of the beliefs that you have in GOD and how your reasoning above applies so that that I can make a comparison.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Aug 16 2004, 04:20 PM']Now, what I am asking from you, is that you give a rational proof that backs up your personal opinions about this "god" of yours. Is your "god" necessary being? Is your "god" the uncaused cause? Is your "god" the unmoved mover?[/quote]
[quote name='carrdero' date='Aug 17 2004, 07:27 AM']I can’t help shake the feeing that I just finished watching a Woody Allen film. I have a “jist” at what you are saying but I could use more clarification into actually what you are requesting. .[/quote]
Carrderro,

It's really quite simple. Show that there is a basis for your belief in this "god" in objective reality, and not simply within your own mind. If what you are saying about this "god" is purely personal and subjective, it follows that there can be no common ground between us and no real dialogue, because this "god" you talk about is basically a figment of your own imagination.

[quote name='carrdero' date='Aug 17 2004, 07:27 AM']Apotheoun if you could take those questions above and give some laymen examples maybe I could offer some insight. I also may be able to offer reasonable examples of why I feel like that. Also please include your version of the beliefs that you have in GOD and how your reasoning above applies so that that I can make a comparison.[/quote]
I will give other proofs in addition to the proof from contingency that I have already provided, but only when you respond to my original post asking for you to rationally prove your own assertions. At this point in our discussion we are focused on your beliefs, on your assertions, on your "god," and not on what I believe. Address my post, and give your rational proofs, and then our conversation can move forward.

[carrdero]

Apotheoun writes: It's really quite simple. Show that there is a basis for your belief in this "god" in objective reality, and not simply within your own mind. If what you are saying about this "god" is purely personal and subjective, it follows that there can be no common ground between us and no real dialogue, because this "god" you talk about is basically a figment of your own imagination.

Well I think the book I have written is a good start in objective reality. Actually, that is really all I got. How did I do?

[Theoketos]

Is it possible that your personal experience might not be based on Reality? I am sure that most every moment of our lives is seen with some sort of personal bias.

What then is reality? God is.

He is prefect, we are not, you are not, and I am not.

My knowledge will never be prefect, until I am in full and final communion with God, who is truth.

How then do we know what is true on Earth?

Faith seeking understanding, guided by the Holy Spirit who comes by the most powerful and best means of the intercession of His spouse, the Blessed Virgin Mary, who was and is sinless, and represents the church sinless, which speaks through the vicar of Christ, the Holy Father, in communion with the whole church, militant, suffering, and triumphant.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Aug 18 2004, 07:18 AM'] Apotheoun writes: It's really quite simple. Show that there is a basis for your belief in this "god" in objective reality, and not simply within your own mind. If what you are saying about this "god" is purely personal and subjective, it follows that there can be no common ground between us and no real dialogue, because this "god" you talk about is basically a figment of your own imagination.

Well I think the book I have written is a good start in objective reality. Actually, that is really all I got. How did I do? [/quote]
The book you've written is proof of nothing, and to refer to it begs the question, since the point at issue between us is the reality of the existence of this "god" you claim to talk to; and, as I've already indicated, so far you haven't proved that this "god" is anything but a figment of your own imagination. So, prove, through a rational argument, without any reference to the socalled dialogues that you've had with this imaginary being, that this "god" of yours really exists outside of your own mind, or desist from making claims that you cannot support.

If the book you've written is all that you've got; it follows, that there is no reason whatsoever to give any credence to what you've said about this "god," or about God in general.

[carrdero]

Apotheoun writes: The book you've written is proof of nothing, and to refer to it begs the question, since the point at issue between us is the reality of the existence of this "god" you claim to talk to; and, as I've already indicated, so far you haven't proved that this "god" is anything but a figment of your own imagination. So, prove, through a rational argument, without any reference to the socalled dialogues that you've had with this imaginary being, that this "god" of yours really exists outside of your own mind, or desist from making claims that you cannot support.
If the book you've written is all that you've got; it follows, that there is no reason whatsoever to give any credence to what you've said about this "god," or about God in general.

Not necessarily. If the book were entitled HELLO IT’s ME: An Interveiw With ME there is still a lot of pertinent information to ponder and profound insights to consider that stand to reason against anyone’s belief system. I also wouldn’t be the first person to write a book like that. In fact if I am not mistaken you are studying material from others who have had a different perspective on life (you may CORRECT me if I am wrong).
The fact that the book was written by GOD and me is not as impressive to me as the actual dialogue contain therein. It really made sense to me. The selling point to me is not that GOD spoke to me but that everyone can achieve a relationship like this with GOD. It has never been about PROVING or DISPROVING the information in the book rather than going to GOD yourself and receiving the answers to your own questions. So after K(NOW)ing this what exactly is the concern that you have with the book? Or me? Or me and the book?

Also I must point out to you that it is now your turn to respond to the same question. Here I will get you started.

Apotheoun,
It's really quite simple. Show that there is a basis for your belief in this "god" in objective reality, and not simply within your own mind. If what you are saying about this "god" is purely personal and subjective this "god" you talk about is basically a figment of your own imagination.
Now, what I am asking from you, is that you give a rational proof that backs up your personal opinions about this "god" of yours. Is your "god" necessary being? Is your "god" the uncaused cause? Is your "god" the unmoved mover? Etc.

Also please keep your answers in simple and clear form. There are actually easier ways to explain anything you have to say. As I explained to Jeff, I do not speak "intellectualese" and I can't very well respond to your post if I can't understand it.

Edited August 19, 2004 by carrdero

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Aug 19 2004, 10:29 AM'] Apotheoun,
It's really quite simple. Show that there is a basis for your belief in this "god" in objective reality, and not simply within your own mind. If what you are saying about this "god" is purely personal and subjective this "god" you talk about is basically a figment of your own imagination.
[/quote]
Once again, I'm not Apotheoun, but he seems to be getting all the fun questions so I'm butting in.

A few years ago God kicked my butt, then I believed in Him and strove to change my life and all that. There was never a question of me conjuring some psychological coping mechanism or of projecting some personification of my issues with my father because God saw me first, and I felt it.

And I wouldn't have renounced all the wicked little attachments I so loved if I was just daydreaming and trying to make myself feel good. My imaginary God would be cool with getting drunk and rustling up loose women. (not that I was ever into that per se, but you get the point)

[carrdero]

Laudate_Dominum writes: Once again, I'm not Apotheoun, but he seems to be getting all the fun questions so I'm butting in.

Your opinion/experience/belief is welcomed at anytime with me.

Laudate_Dominum writes: A few years ago God kicked my butt, then I believed in Him and strove to change my life and all that.

Though I have never K(NOW)N GOD to be a “kicker of the behind” I do realize that there are some people who come to realize GOD in their own way. GOD is not really concerned about how people come to him as much as I believe he is just happy that they are there.

Laudate_Dominum writes: There was never a question of me conjuring some psychological coping mechanism or of projecting some personification of my issues with my father because God saw me first, and I felt it.

There was really never any personal tragedy or revelation that brought me to GOD just a wondering curiosity. I have been through many religions that claim to K(NOW) GOD but their beliefs/faith/doctrines/dogma never made sense so all I did was relieve the middle man and get the answers straight from the source. When I arrived to GOD I didn’t really have any issues or projections. I just had questions and I found GOD very patient and understanding in answering them all for me.

Laudate_Dominum writes: And I wouldn't have renounced all the wicked little attachments I so loved if I was just daydreaming and trying to make myself feel good. My imaginary God would be cool with getting drunk and rustling up loose women. (not that I was ever into that per se, but you get the point)

Though there were some unproductive habits that I have discontinued using in my life I came to the conclusion that it was me who was doing this to myself and that GOD or Satan were not the reasons for the circumstances I found myself in.

[Cure of Ars]

I have problems with you methodology. Writing a book is cool and it is great to have a personal relationship with God. In fact it is essential. But the problem is that your method is narcissistic with very limited perspective and makes no real demands to submit to something higher. It has little power to challenge because it is based on subjective experience with no checks or balances to something beyond oneself. Personally, I know with myself that it is easier to lie to myself then it is to fool someone else. We all have defense mechanisms that lead us to fool ourselves about reality. I am a social worker and I have found this to be true for all people. I see it on a daily basis. So let me suggest a broader perspective.


[b]Wisdom Tradition[/b]

As a Catholic, I do not rely only on my personal experience. My experiences are very limited to all the experiences that people have had through out time. As a Catholic I am a part of a wisdom tradition that spans over 4000 years. It has had some of the greats minds ponder the truths that God has revealed. It has had some of the greatest mystics the world has ever known seek union with God. It has had the greatest saints that the world has ever known lay down their lives for the most powerless parts of humanity. And all this is based on the truth that God has revealed through his only son. This one man was only a poor carpenter but he has had the most impact on the world then any other man. No other wisdom tradition can hold a candle to what Christ has done through his bride the Church.

[b]Submit, Repent, turn to Christ[/b]

I am not the measure of truth. It is foolishness to try to make truth fit to what I think is right. Instead we are called to submit and conform to reality. And without doing this we play God and God can not change us. By submiting to Christ, with his grace, I hope to truly be able to say, “I have been crucified with Christ; yet I live, no longer I, but Christ lives in me” (Gal 2:19-20)

Edited August 19, 2004 by Cure of Ars

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Aug 19 2004, 11:09 AM'] Laudate_Dominum writes: Once again, I'm not Apotheoun, but he seems to be getting all the fun questions so I'm butting in.

Your opinion/experience/belief is welcomed at anytime with me.

Laudate_Dominum writes: A few years ago God kicked my butt, then I believed in Him and strove to change my life and all that.

Though I have never K(NOW)N GOD to be a “kicker of the behind” I do realize that there are some people who come to realize GOD in their own way. GOD is not really concerned about how people come to him as much as I believe he is just happy that they are there.

Laudate_Dominum writes: There was never a question of me conjuring some psychological coping mechanism or of projecting some personification of my issues with my father because God saw me first, and I felt it.

There was really never any personal tragedy or revelation that brought me to GOD just a wondering curiosity. I have been through many religions that claim to K(NOW) GOD but their beliefs/faith/doctrines/dogma never made sense so all I did was relieve the middle man and get the answers straight from the source. When I arrived to GOD I didn’t really have any issues or projections. I just had questions and I found GOD very patient and understanding in answering them all for me.

Laudate_Dominum writes: And I wouldn't have renounced all the wicked little attachments I so loved if I was just daydreaming and trying to make myself feel good. My imaginary God would be cool with getting drunk and rustling up loose women. (not that I was ever into that per se, but you get the point)

Though there were some unproductive habits that I have discontinued using in my life I came to the conclusion that it was me who was doing this to myself and that GOD or Satan were not the reasons for the circumstances I found myself in. [/quote]
Thank you for welcoming my opinions and things.

I looked at that webpage that you gave a link to. You seem pretty cool in my opinion. I hardly know anything about you, but you seem like a unique person (a quality I appreciate). I respect that you are so serious and dedicated to your belief in God.

I've actually not read most of the debates you've been participating in (mainly with Apotheoun) so I don't really know what's going on. But it occurred to me after reading a little part that most of us who have a relationship with God still have a distorted image of God. Its the same in relationships with people, we may know and even love a person, but we still often project, idealize and other such things. I'm not saying its not important what people believe about God, I wish everyone in the world would embrace the fullness of the Faith and know Christ and Our Lady and everything. But I know that when people are open to God He leads them on the paths that are best for them, and if they are docile and everything, they will come to green pastures. I don't really know what you believe about God, do you believe that Jesus is God Incarnate? Just curious.

Anyway, its good having a new and unique voice on phatmass. I look forward to future discussions.

God bless.

[carrdero]

Laudate_Dominum writes: But I know that when people are open to God He leads them on the paths that are best for them, and if they are docile and everything, they will come to green pastures.

Probably the most important discussion I had with GOD was the whole "why am I here/what is my PURPOSE in life" discussion. This is an answer that I never had explained for me satisfactorily from any other person or organization. GOD has assured me that I am a unique person and that I do have my own PURPOSE in this physical existence and that has been a comforting victory to my existence.

Laudate_Dominum writes: I don't really know what you believe about God, do you believe that Jesus is God Incarnate? Just curious.

From what I understand GOD has told me that he never incarnated to a physical existence on earth and that Jesus and GOD are indeed two separate entities. Though I did learn some new and exciting things about Jesus in the JESUS THE CHRIST chapter.

Laudate_Dominum writes: Anyway, its good having a new and unique voice on phatmass. I look forward to future discussions.

That has got to be the most sincerest and warmest welcome I have received.

Edited August 19, 2004 by carrdero

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Aug 19 2004, 11:55 AM'] Probably the most important discussion I had with GOD was the whole "why am I here/what is my PURPOSE in life" discussion. This is an answer that I never had explained for me satisfactorily from any other person or organization. GOD has assured me that I am a unique person and that I do have my own PURPOSE in this physical existence and that has been a comforting victory to my existence.
[/quote]
That is a profound discussion to have. I have had that discussion with God in prayer several times over the years. I'm kind of dense so I need to be reminded from time to time.

[quote]From what I understand GOD has told me that he never incarnated to a physical existence on earth and that Jesus and GOD are indeed two separate entities. Though I did learn some new and exciting things about Jesus in the JESUS THE CHRIST chapter.[/quote]
You have made me curious to know what things you learned about Jesus in the JESUS THE CHRIST chapter.. hmm..
As I'm sure you know I believe that Jesus Christ is, in his very person, the definitive revelation of God. I would actually recommend reading the Bible (if you don't already), particularly the Gospels. If I was receiving insights about Christ (especially if I felt there was supernatural activity involved) I would feel obliged to follow up with some discernment. "Test the spirits" as the Scripture says. I imagine if these teachings about Christ you have received are from God, they will be consistent with the Holy Gospels. Just my advice (not that you asked for it, sorry).

[quote]That has got to be the most sincerest and warmest welcome I have received.[/quote]

Peace be with you.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Aug 19 2004, 08:29 AM']Apotheoun writes: The book you've written is proof of nothing, and to refer to it begs the question, since the point at issue between us is the reality of the existence of this "god" you claim to talk to; and, as I've already indicated, so far you haven't proved that this "god" is anything but a figment of your own imagination. So, prove, through a rational argument, without any reference to the socalled dialogues that you've had with this imaginary being, that this "god" of yours really exists outside of your own mind, or desist from making claims that you cannot support.
If the book you've written is all that you've got; it follows, that there is no reason whatsoever to give any credence to what you've said about this "god," or about God in general.

Not necessarily. If the book were entitled HELLO IT’s ME: An Interveiw With ME there is still a lot of pertinent information to ponder and profound insights to consider that stand to reason against anyone’s belief system. I also wouldn’t be the first person to write a book like that. In fact if I am not mistaken you are studying material from others who have had a different perspective on life (you may CORRECT me if I am wrong).
The fact that the book was written by GOD and me is not as impressive to me as the actual dialogue contain therein. It really made sense to me. The selling point to me is not that GOD spoke to me but that everyone can achieve a relationship like this with GOD. It has never been about PROVING or DISPROVING the information in the book rather than going to GOD yourself and receiving the answers to your own questions. So after K(NOW)ing this what exactly is the concern that you have with the book? Or me? Or me and the book?

Also I must point out to you that it is now your turn to respond to the same question. Here I will get you started.

Apotheoun,
It's really quite simple. Show that there is a basis for your belief in this "god" in objective reality, and not simply within your own mind. If what you are saying about this "god" is purely personal and subjective this "god" you talk about is basically a figment of your own imagination.
  Now, what I am asking from you, is that you give a rational proof that backs up your personal opinions about this "god" of yours. Is your "god" necessary being? Is your "god" the uncaused cause? Is your "god" the unmoved mover? Etc.

Also please keep your answers in simple and clear form. There are actually easier ways to explain anything you have to say. As I explained to Jeff, I do not speak "intellectualese" and I can't very well respond to your post if I can't understand it.[/quote]
No, I don't have to respond to you yet, because you still haven't really responded to anything I've asked. You've given no reasons for what you assert, and simply reiterate that this "god" you supposedly talk to has told you these things, and after hearing the same answer from you in post after post, it has become apparent that you are trapped in a form of relativism, and that there is no objective basis for what you say about your "god" or the true God, who revealed Himself in Jesus Christ. In a strange sense, when you said that you didn't write a book called, [u]HELLO IT’S ME: An Interveiw With ME[/u], you actually gave what should have been the title of your book, because based on your answers to various moral questions, I don't believe you've talked to one true God; instead, I think you've carried on a rather schizophrenic conversation with yourself. Moreover, I've come to the conclusion that you will not respond to my questions, either because you are incapable of formulating a response, or because you really don't have one (other than constantly advertising your book); and so, I will bow out of this thread and allow Laudate_Dominum to carry on a conversation with you.

God bless,
Todd

[carrdero]

Cure of Ars writes: I have problems with you methodology.

What are your problems?

Cure of Ars writes: Writing a book is cool

Trust Me there is nothing cool about writing a book. Especially about a entity that no one cares about.

Cure of Ars writes: and it is great to have a personal relationship with God.

It’s the best!!

Cure of Ars writes: In fact it is essential.

Like food and water.

Cure of Ars writes: But the problem is that your method is narcissistic

What wrong with self- love?

Cure of Ars writes: with very limited perspective and makes no real demands to submit to something higher.

Why would you want to submit to something higher?

Cure of Ars writes: It has little power to challenge because it is based on subjective experience with no checks or balances to something beyond oneself.

Why is it so difficult for anyone to believe that someone can recognize LOVE and consideration respect for oneself. GOD never said we needed to believe in GOD to live a good PURPOSEFUL and prosperous life.

Cure of Ars writes:Personally, I know with myself that it is easier to lie to myself then it is to fool someone else.

Personally I know with myself that it is easier to BE honest with myself and with others.

[carrdero]

Apotheoun writes: No, I don't have to respond to you yet, because you still haven't really responded to anything I've asked. You've given no reasons for what you assert, and simply reiterate that this "god" you supposedly talk to has told you these things, and after hearing the same answer from you in post after post, it has become apparent that you are trapped in a form of relativism, and that there is no objective basis for what you say about your "god" or the true God, who revealed Himself in Jesus Christ. In a strange sense, when you said that you didn't write a book called, HELLO IT’S ME: An Interveiw With ME, you actually gave what should have been the title of your book, because based on your answers to various moral questions, I don't believe you've talked to one true God; instead, I think you've carried on a rather schizophrenic conversation with yourself. Moreover, I've come to the conclusion that you will not respond to my questions, either because you are incapable of formulating a response, or because you really don't have one (other than constantly advertising your book); and so, I will bow out of this thread and allow Laudate_Dominum to carry on a conversation with you.

ok

[Laudate_Dominum]

I hope you don't mind if I share what I was thinking as I read your last post.

[quote]Cure of Ars writes: But the problem is that your method is narcissistic

What wrong with self- love?[/quote]
Nothing is wrong with self-love as such. But love must be properly ordered to be true. Love is true when it is ordered toward the Truth. If self-love is primary it is not in harmony with the truth of man's metaphysical situation it becomes disordered. Disordered self-love can in fact lead to selfishness, isolation and alienation from others, the innability to love others properly and can alienate one from God.
The Bible teaches quite clearly that the love of God comes first. Self-love and love of neighbor are below love of God if you were to use a hierarchy, and are informed by this love and given a structure which conforms to the truth of reality.
And recall that God is Absolute Goodness and the source of all that is good and true and beautiful. To live a life rooted in a deep love relationship with the source of all Love, enabled one to love on a higher level (a high example being someone like Mother Teresa). This is the fulfillment of our being, to live not for ourselves, but to become love, as it were.

[quote]Cure of Ars writes: with very limited perspective and makes no real demands to submit to something higher.

Why would you want to submit to something higher?[/quote]
The truth of man's metaphysical situation, that I mentioned above, is that you did not create yourself. None of us are the source of our own being and to live as if you are is to live a lie basically. To "submit to something higher" is not a bad thing at all, it is truth. We are contingent, dependent creatures and to recognize this and live by it is the beginning of walking in truth. And it in no way demeans the human person or takes away from his dignity, rather it fulfills it because that "higher power" toward which we owe our very being, is in fact the source, cause, and sole fulfillment of that being. The only adequate response in the face of the reality of our metaphysical situation is humility and loving surrender. And God is in fact Love, so surrendering to God is surrendering to Love, perfect peace and joy and fulfillment for all eternity, which is the meaning of all the true and noble longings of the human heart.

[quote]Cure of Ars writes: It has little power to challenge because it is based on subjective experience with no checks or balances to something beyond oneself.

Why is it so difficult for anyone to believe that someone can recognize LOVE and consideration respect for oneself. GOD never said we needed to believe in GOD to live a good PURPOSEFUL and prosperous life. [/quote]
This reminded me of Augustine's criticisms of Aristotle's philosophy. Indeed there were many godless philosophies in the ancient world that claimed to have the recipe for human happiness and fulfillment. They general contain much truth, for example Aristotle expounded upon the virtues brilliantly and showed how only a virtuous life can bring man peace and happiness. But the problem Augustine points out is that no matter how good your life is here on earth, or how happy your are in a worldly sense, you will still meet with tragedies, illness, loss of loved ones, and ultimately your own death. Only a life which is ordered toward eternity can bring true, deep happiness and the peace which transcends this finite existence. So I would say you can live a purposeful and prosperous life to some extent, but the ultimate questions and the deeper purpose of life will be left bankrupt. God alone can give ultimate purpose, meaning and happiness.


God bless you.

[carrdero]

Some intersteing viewpoints on LOVE. Did you get a chance to see what I post about GOD’s feelings toward LOVE?

Why Does God Require Worship?Carrdero Posted: Aug 14 2004, 01:09 PM

Laudate_Dominum writes: But the problem Augustine points out is that no matter how good your life is here on earth, or how happy your are in a worldly sense, you will still meet with tragedies, illness, loss of loved ones, and ultimately your own death.

Why do you consider these to be tragedies?

Laudate_Dominum writes: To "submit to something higher" is not a bad thing at all, it is truth.

What truth does this lead to? What are the benefits to submitting to something higher?

Laudate_Dominum writes: And it in no way demeans the human person or takes away from his dignity, rather it fulfills it because that "higher power" toward which we owe our very being, is in fact the source, cause, and sole fulfillment of that being.

I know a few African-Americans who may disagree with you on this point.

Laudate_Dominum writes: And God is in fact Love, so surrendering to God is surrendering to Love, perfect peace and joy and fulfillment for all eternity, which is the meaning of all the true and noble longings of the human heart.

Do you believe that GOD loves us UNCONDITIONALLY?

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Aug 20 2004, 03:49 AM'] Some intersteing viewpoints on LOVE. Did you get a chance to see what I post about GOD’s feelings toward LOVE?

Why Does God Require Worship?Carrdero Posted: Aug 14 2004, 01:09 PM

Laudate_Dominum writes: But the problem Augustine points out is that no matter how good your life is here on earth, or how happy your are in a worldly sense, you will still meet with tragedies, illness, loss of loved ones, and ultimately your own death.

Why do you consider these to be tragedies?

Laudate_Dominum writes: To "submit to something higher" is not a bad thing at all, it is truth.

What truth does this lead to? What are the benefits to submitting to something higher?

Laudate_Dominum writes: And it in no way demeans the human person or takes away from his dignity, rather it fulfills it because that "higher power" toward which we owe our very being, is in fact the source, cause, and sole fulfillment of that being.

I know a few African-Americans who may disagree with you on this point.

Laudate_Dominum writes: And God is in fact Love, so surrendering to God is surrendering to Love, perfect peace and joy and fulfillment for all eternity, which is the meaning of all the true and noble longings of the human heart.

Do you believe that GOD loves us UNCONDITIONALLY? [/quote]
[quote]Some intersteing viewpoints on LOVE. Did you get a chance to see what I post about GOD’s feelings toward LOVE? [/quote]
I didn't see those posts.. I'll check it out later, I need to sleep very soon.

[quote]Laudate_Dominum writes: But the problem Augustine points out is that no matter how good your life is here on earth, or how happy your are in a worldly sense, you will still meet with tragedies, illness, loss of loved ones, and ultimately your own death.

Why do you consider these to be tragedies?[/quote]
Because they are losses, privations, evils. No one desires to loose their health, to suffer the pains of disease and illness, if they do there is obviously something seriously wrong there. Also when people we love die it is sad and painful and we don't want them to die. And the reality of death is the perrenial problem of life, we must all face our mortality, this is a source of fear and uncertainty for people. I do not think I have said anything that is really disputed. Are you suggesting that you do not consider these things to be tragic?

[quote]Laudate_Dominum writes: To "submit to something higher" is not a bad thing at all, it is truth.

What truth does this lead to? What are the benefits to submitting to something higher?[/quote]
I said to submit to something higher is not bad, it is truth. Not that it leads to truth (though it does because in this case I was talking specifically about submitting to God Who is Absolute Truth), but that this act of submission comes from accepting the truth of man's metaphysical situation, the fact that I did not create myself and therefore I am not the source of truth and meaning in the universe but that the ultimate reality transcends my own mind and existence.

[quote]Laudate_Dominum writes: And it in no way demeans the human person or takes away from his dignity, rather it fulfills it because that "higher power" toward which we owe our very being, is in fact the source, cause, and sole fulfillment of that being.

I know a few African-Americans who may disagree with you on this point.[/quote]
I know sure what you are talking about here. How might these African-Americans disagree? Why does it matter that they are African-Americans? I wonder if you correctly interpret the point I was making there.

[quote]Do you believe that GOD loves us UNCONDITIONALLY?[/quote]
Of course. But.. I suspect you are presupposing an inadequate concept of love. If the direction you are going with this question is that God loves us no matter what we do and therefore we don't really have any moral obligations, God created us to do whatever we want and there is nothing we can do that will make Him not love us. I remember reading these sort of thing in the Conversations with God book. It said you could fornicate or do whatever and that God was ok with it (actually the writer put these words into God's mouth).
First of all I believe that God loves us no matter what we do, no matter how much we sin. But, this does not mean that there are no consequences for sins. Even in the natural order our actions have consequences. Loving a person and not caring about how that person acts is not really loving them at all. If you love someone you desire what is best for them and want them to choose the good. Sometimes parents must be tough with their children for their own good because their actions choices are wrong. God loves you and I, and because God loves He is not indifferent to our actions. I would not believe my mother loved me if she did not care at all about my actions. "It's ok son, do whatever you feel like." When we sin it doesn't mean that God doesn't love us, we might feel unworthy of God's love and convince ourselves that God doesn't love us. Deep down I think we know when we are not loving up to the true dignity of who we are created to be. The negative effects of sin are signs that are meant to teach us and lead us to repentance and conversion of heart; toward the truth of who we are in the universe and of the ultimate meaning of our lives. Consider a couple, say the man repeatedly cheated on the woman but claimed to love her, and she claimed to love him, and suppose further that the woman was well aware of the man's infidelity but just accepted it in the name of love. This would not really be a loving relationship but an abusive relationship, and if the woman really desired the man's good (and her own good) she would vehemently oppose this destructive cycle of abuse. This breaking up would be painful and unpleasant, but hopefully the man would be changed for the better because of it. This scenario fits with the nature of love whereas the original scenario was a hollow conterfeit.
The universe has an objective structure and order, it is not consistent to try to make God out to be a God of arbitrariness, indifference and absurdity really. I won't say more because I'm not even sure if this is the direction you were going to take.

Peace be with you.

[Cure of Ars]

[quote]Trust Me there is nothing cool about writing a book. Especially about a entity that no one cares about. [/quote]


I think it’s cool many people only dream about doing this. As for no one caring, I sorry if this is how you see things but from a Catholic perspective what your doing is very dangerous. Not to say that your intentions are not good but what your basically saying is, “listen to me, not Christ” because as you admitted your perspective does not see Christ as God incarnate. From a Catholic view point to lead someone away from Christ is one of the worst things that you could possible do. Worse then even giving crack to elementary kids. This is because Christ is the physician for our soul. Without Christ you’re lost. He is the way the truth and the life. So if we are not as open to your book and your god, you should know that it is not because we are mean but because we do not want to participate in leading people away from the source of all goodness.

I remember that you said that you have a chapter on Christ in your book. I assume it views Christ more as a wise teacher more than as the word of God. But really this view is not reasonable. There are only three reasonable views of Chris and being only a wise man is not one of them. Jesus claimed to be God which is a huge claim. Now with this claim there are only three options:

1. Jesus is telling us the truth and he is God.
2. Jesus is lying and he is leading people away from God, which is a very evil act.
3. Jesus could have been insane and had illusions of grandeur, in which case he was nuts.

These are really the only reasonable options and they do not include a good wise man. I have not read your book so I do not know which one it picked.


I have a question for you. Is your book true because you believe it, or do you believe your book because it is true?

Edited August 21, 2004 by Cure of Ars

[carrdero]

Cure of Ars writes: I think it’s cool many people only dream about doing this.

It is a lot of work. As an author there are many things that have to be considered; writing and publishing and promoting. I K(NOW) a lot more about the business NOW then I did before but looking back at the experience, “cool” would not be my first word to describe the experience.

Cure of Ars writes: As for no one caring, I sorry if this is how you see things but from a Catholic perspective what your doing is very dangerous.

Danger is my middle name. Like I have mentioned to other Phatmass members and as history has shown in the past, people who believe that they have this kind of insight with GOD were persecuted for their beliefs. I do not want a safe relationship with GOD I want a REAL relationship with GOD. If danger is part of having a REAL relationship with GOD so BE it.

Cure of Ars writes: Not to say that your intentions are not good but what your basically saying is, “listen to me, not Christ” because as you admitted your perspective does not see Christ as God incarnate.

Actually GOD’s perspective did not admit to me that he was Christ incarnate or that he had ever incarnated to a physical existence. Maybe that will be my next book; An Interview With Jesus.
I don’t think the message of my book is “listen to me, not Christ” . The message of the book really is “Here is what I have discussed with GOD, take it or leave it”. Another prominent message of the book is that GOD is available and awaiting your questions for those people who do not agree with the beliefs that I have arrived at. There is even a section about HOW TO TALK WITH GOD for those people who wish to have their own personal REALationship with GOD to explore not only my findings but to understand their own beliefs.

Cure of Ars writes: I remember that you said that you have a chapter on Christ in your book. I assume it views Christ more as a wise teacher more than as the word of God.

Actually the chapter brings out even more relevant facets of Jesus’ existence on earth that are sometimes overlooked or ignored by people.

Cure of Ars writes: But really this view is not reasonable. There are only three reasonable views of Chris and being only a wise man is not one of them. Jesus claimed to be God which is a huge claim. Now with this claim there are only three options:

1. Jesus is telling us the truth and he is God.
2. Jesus is lying and he is leading people away from God, which is a very evil act.
3. Jesus could have been insane and had illusions of grandeur, in which case he was nuts.

If you are using the Bible as your source for these conclusions there are many scriptures in the Bible that clearly interpret Jesus and GOD as BEing two separate entities. There is also the fact that Jesus’ life was documented for the Bible 30 years after his death which leaves to much speculation and misinformation on what early Christians “would have you believe” about the life of Christ. 30 years is to long for me and another 2000 years of interpretation piled on top of that doesn’t really conclude an accurate description of Jesus’ life. I have concluded that the only entity who was around at the time of Jesus’ existence and REMEMBERS what Jesus the Christ’s life was like was GOD.

Cure of Ars writes: I have a question for you. Is your book true because you believe it, or do you believe your book because it is true?

Like I mentioned to other Phatmass members there are many points that GOD has expressed to me that make for better sense than many of the theories that I have been exposed to throughout my lifetime. Though I cannot PROVE everything in my book, there are some points (either through lack of human understanding or observance) that GOD and I do not see eye to eye on. In other words GOD can be CORRECT (and probably is) but I cannot/haven't realize(d) it yet.