A Question On Final Theosis

[Guest JeffCR07]

I have a little question with regards to the teachings of [i]Final Theosis[/i].

As I have come to understand it now (and I may very well be wrong) [i]Final Theosis[/i] is the state of deification in which a person is perfected through his or her partaking in the Divine Nature.

Now, it seems to me that, because we understand the notion of being "created in the image of God" to mean that we are a unity of body and soul (with our soul, unlike that of an animal or plant, being intrinsically rational) in order for us to be completed, we must have our bodies - hence we believe in the Ressurection of the body come the end of the age.

However, if I am right so far, then I see an interesting dilemma that I cannot get out of (though it may very well not be a dilemma at all). It seems, then, that one could only go through Final Theosis (become perfect, complete, and divine, through communion with God) if he or she also has their body.

If this is true, there are two logical conclusion. The first is that the only person to have undergone [i]Final Theosis[/i] is our Blessed Mother. The second is that none of the other Saints in heaven have undergone [i]Final Theosis[/i].

Now, if I am right about all of this, then we have reached my question.

If the Saints (excluding Mary) have not undergone [i]Final Theosis[/i], then this means that they are lacking something while being in heaven. Doesn't this imply an aspect of inadequecy (at least indirectly) in Heaven?

This simply seems contradictory to me, and I was hoping someone with a sounder grasp on the doctrine could help me understand. Thanks a ton!

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[Guest JeffCR07]

oops, im not sure if this should be in the debate board or the catholic apologetics board

[Aloysius]

you know where it should be? anywhere where Apotheon can answer it.

[Madonna]

[quote]If this is true, there are two logical conclusion. The first is that the only person to have undergone Final Theosis is our Blessed Mother. The second is that none of the other Saints in heaven have undergone Final Theosis.

Now, if I am right about all of this, then we have reached my question.[/quote]

I may be wrong, but wouldn't Jesus have undergone Final Theosis as well? He died and ascended.

One way or another, it wouldn't shake my belief. I think there is only so much that you can intellectualize. I think Heaven isn't in the realm of rational thought because maybe God wants to actually surprise us with something instead of us trying to figure it all out.

This all said, I am sure someone will come back with an answer of sorts to Jeff's question, anyway.

[Guest JeffCR07]

I dont think Jesus would, because his perfection is not dependent upon communion with an external source (God). His being God implies perfection.

[Madonna]

So Jesus' Body ascended into nothingness?


Also, wouldn't having our bodies in Heaven require that Heaven is a physical place? But then again, God could break the laws of physics.

How dare you make me think, Jeff!

[Seven77]

i understand that Final Theosis is completed when the soul enters Paradise. Final Theosis is the completion of sanctification. its a final purification--what we call Purgatory.

[Guest JeffCR07]

hmm not sure, now we're really getting into speculative theology...

help?

[Seven77]

just found something thatll help you Jeff :


Grace and Divinization of Humanity
[url="http://home.nyc.rr.com/mysticalrose/grace3.html"]http://home.nyc.rr.com/mysticalrose/grace3.html[/url]

"The Word became flesh to make us 'partakers of the divine nature'...'For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.' 'The only begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods'" (CCC 460).

[thicke]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Aug 10 2004, 12:06 PM'] If the Saints (excluding Mary) have not undergone [i]Final Theosis[/i], then this means that they are lacking something while being in heaven. Doesn't this imply an aspect of inadequecy (at least indirectly) in Heaven? [/quote]
OK....this is really making my brain hurt, so I'll try to put it out in words.

Couldn't this go back to the discussions of the nature/existence of time in Purgatory/Heaven? If time doesn't exist in Heaven (or even exists, but is different than here on Earth), then from the point of view from Heaven, they could already re-united with their glorified bodies. I mean, even though it hasn't happened from the point of view on Earth. Sorry if that doesn't make much sense. Like I said, it makes my brain hurt....

Edited August 10, 2004 by thicke

[cmotherofpirl]

Yes we get our body back but it is a glorified body like Jesus has. So we will be able to walk thru walls [ if there are such things as walls then] and go anywhere in time or space if we just direct ourselves there.

A glorified body is as different from a natural body as night is to day. We will be clothed in our righteous deeds.

The Saints are glorified souls in heaven and now see God and their joy is complete, but even they await the final Judgement when a new heaven and earth are created and their bodies will be returned.

[Madonna]

whoa, whoa...rewind on this part [quote]but even they await the final Judgement when a new heaven and earth are created and their bodies will be returned.[/quote]

re-judged?

[Anna]

There is the particular judgement and the final judgement.
And be careful about interpretting that we "become gods;" our belief isn't the same as the mormons.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Aug 10 2004, 10:06 AM'] I have a little question with regards to the teachings of [i]Final Theosis[/i].

As I have come to understand it now (and I may very well be wrong) [i]Final Theosis[/i] is the state of deification in which a person is perfected through his or her partaking in the Divine Nature.

Now, it seems to me that, because we understand the notion of being "created in the image of God" to mean that we are a unity of body and soul (with our soul, unlike that of an animal or plant, being intrinsically rational) in order for us to be completed, we must have our bodies - hence we believe in the Ressurection of the body come the end of the age.

However, if I am right so far, then I see an interesting dilemma that I cannot get out of (though it may very well not be a dilemma at all). It seems, then, that one could only go through Final Theosis (become perfect, complete, and divine, through communion with God) if he or she also has their body.

If this is true, there are two logical conclusion. The first is that the only person to have undergone [i]Final Theosis[/i] is our Blessed Mother. The second is that none of the other Saints in heaven have undergone [i]Final Theosis[/i].

Now, if I am right about all of this, then we have reached my question.

If the Saints (excluding Mary) have not undergone [i]Final Theosis[/i], then this means that they are lacking something while being in heaven. Doesn't this imply an aspect of inadequecy (at least indirectly) in Heaven?

This simply seems contradictory to me, and I was hoping someone with a sounder grasp on the doctrine could help me understand. Thanks a ton!

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff [/quote]
[i]Final theosis[/i] is the completion of sanctification, and as such it indicates that a person has entered into the Beatific Vision, therefore what Seven77 says is correct. Those souls that have entered into the Vision of God have been fully deified. Now, it is true to say that Mary, because of her bodily assumption into heaven, has experienced [i]final theosis[/i] in an exemplary and definitive sense. Because even though a soul can enter into the Beatific Vision without its body, there is a sense in which something is still lacking to it, i.e., the soul's resurrection body. Man is after all a hylomorphic being, i.e., he is a single being composed of body and soul, and therefore only when his body and soul are united is his personality fully realized. Moreover, because of the incarnation of the Word of God, the body shares in the [i]imago Dei[/i], and so only when a man's body and soul are reunited is he definitively fulfilled. Thus, in a sense [i]final theosis[/i] is not definitively completed until the [i]Parousia[/i] of Christ, and the general resurrection of the dead.

God bless,
Todd

Edited August 10, 2004 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Madonna' date='Aug 10 2004, 10:22 AM'] I may be wrong, but wouldn't Jesus have undergone Final Theosis as well? He died and ascended.

One way or another, it wouldn't shake my belief. I think there is only so much that you can intellectualize. I think Heaven isn't in the realm of rational thought because maybe God wants to actually surprise us with something instead of us trying to figure it all out.

This all said, I am sure someone will come back with an answer of sorts to Jeff's question, anyway. [/quote]
No, because Jesus' human nature was deified from the moment of His conception in Mary's womb, as St. John of Damascus said: "For the Word Himself became flesh, having been in truth conceived of the Virgin, [i]but coming forth as God with the assumed nature which, as soon as He was brought forth into being, was deified by Him[/i], so that these three things took place simultaneously, the assumption of our nature, the coming into being, [i]and the deification of the assumed nature by the Word[/i]. And thus it is that the holy Virgin is thought of and spoken of as the [i]Mother of God[/i], not only because of the nature of the Word, [i]but also because of the deification of man's nature[/i], the miracles of conception and of existence being wrought together, to wit, the conception the Word, and the existence of the flesh in the Word Himself." [St. John Damascene, [u]An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith[/u], Book III, Chapter 12]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Anna' date='Aug 10 2004, 01:27 PM'] There is the particular judgement and the final judgement.
And be careful about interpretting that we "become gods;" our belief isn't the same as the mormons. [/quote]
You are correct, and the Catholic doctrine of [i]theosis[/i] is not to be confused with the Mormon belief that man's nature evolves into a divine being independently of the Trinity, and that he receives his own planet where he rules as a god. Mormonism is a form of polytheism, and as such is completely heretical and non-Christian. The doctrine of [i]theosis[/i] concerns man's deification by grace, in other words, man becomes a son of God in the only begotten Son of God. What Christ is by nature, man becomes by grace. This does not involve a [i]transubstantiation[/i] of man's nature into the divine nature, because that would actually involve the annihilation of man, and not his salvation. But just as one must be careful to avoid any type of a Mormon view of divinization, so too one must avoid any attempt to turn deification into a mere metaphor, because man is truly, and not in mere appearance, divinized by grace, and in the process he becomes participant in God's very life and energy. By grace man is elevated into the glory of the Triune God.

Here are some additional posts from the [i]Catholic Apologetics Forum[/i] where I explain in greater detail the doctrine of [i]theosis[/i], with a special emphasis on its relation to Our Lady, the Holy Theotokos:

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=14339&view=findpost&p=236358"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showt...ndpost&p=236358[/url]

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=14339&view=findpost&p=240993"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showt...ndpost&p=240993[/url]

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=14339&view=findpost&p=242068"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showt...ndpost&p=242068[/url]

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=14339&view=findpost&p=242376"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showt...ndpost&p=242376[/url]

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=15096&view=findpost&p=253949"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showt...ndpost&p=253949[/url]

God bless,
Todd

Edited August 10, 2004 by Apotheoun

[Guest JeffCR07]

Todd, I'm familiar with your previous posts, but my central question is left unanswered.

My question was less "what is [i]Final Theosis[/i]" and more "If [i]Final Theosis[/i] can only be truly completed when the unity of body and soul exists, doesn't this make heaven, in a sense, insufficient?"

I will openly admit both the vague nature of my question (particularly with regards to the use of the word "insufficient") and that a degree of speculation is involved in answering the question.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[Madonna]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Aug 10 2004, 05:09 PM'] No, because Jesus' human nature was deified from the moment of His conception in Mary's womb, as St. John of Damascus said: "For the Word Himself became flesh, having been in truth conceived of the Virgin, [i]but coming forth as God with the assumed nature which, as soon as He was brought forth into being, was deified by Him[/i], so that these three things took place simultaneously, the assumption of our nature, the coming into being, [i]and the deification of the assumed nature by the Word[/i]. And thus it is that the holy Virgin is thought of and spoken of as the [i]Mother of God[/i], not only because of the nature of the Word, [i]but also because of the deification of man's nature[/i], the miracles of conception and of existence being wrought together, to wit, the conception the Word, and the existence of the flesh in the Word Himself." [St. John Damascene, [u]An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith[/u], Book III, Chapter 12] [/quote]
That is a great defense of theotokos.

I agree that Christ was deified from the moment of is conception. But wasn't he both fully God and fully man? And if would we be denying Jesus' humanity if we said He did not go through Final Theosis?

I am not saying I believe that, I am just trying to question to understand better.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Madonna' date='Aug 11 2004, 07:20 AM'] That is a great defense of theotokos.
I agree that Christ was deified from the moment of is conception. But wasn't he both fully God and fully man? And if would we be denying Jesus' humanity if we said He did not go through Final Theosis?[/quote]
Yes, Jesus Christ is both true God and true man; and so, as I said in one of my posts on Mary's deification in the Phatmass Catholic Apologetics Forum, the deification of man doesn't destroy or annihilate his humanity. This is true for both Christ and for the deified Christian. Christ's human nature remains truly human, but from the first instant of His conception it was deified, because even in His humanity He experienced the grace of the Beatific Vision. In fact, not only did He experience the grace of the Beatific Vision in His humanity, but unlike anyone else, He is the source of that grace itself, and His humanity becomes the sacrament through which all men may experience [i]theosis[/i].

Moreover, the reason that I don't use the term [i]final theosis[/i] with Christ, is that He is the source of [i]theosis[/i], and unlike all other men, He does not move from a state of sin to a state of deifying grace; in other words, He is not liberated from sin as other men are; instead, He is the Liberator from sin for all those who are redeemed.

[quote name='Madonna' date='Aug 11 2004, 07:20 AM']I am not saying I believe that, I am just trying to question to understand better. [/quote]
There is absolutely nothing wrong with asking questions; instead, asking questions is a good thing.

God bless,
Todd

Edited August 11, 2004 by Apotheoun

[Madonna]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Aug 11 2004, 12:26 PM'] Yes, Jesus Christ is both true God and true man; and so, as I said in one of my posts on Mary's deification in the Phatmass Catholic Apologetics Forum, the deification of man doesn't destroy or annihilate his humanity. This is true for both Christ and for the deified Christian. Christ's human nature remains truly human, but from the first instant of His conception it was deified, because even in His humanity He experienced the grace of the Beatific Vision. In fact, not only did He experience the grace of the Beatific Vision in His humanity, but unlike anyone else, He is the source of that grace itself, and His humanity becomes the sacrament through which all men may experience [i]theosis[/i].
[/quote]
That is absolutely beautiful and it makes sense. Thank you.