Justification

[MorphRC]

[quote]I am NOT. I believe that churches today contain some admixtures of error and truth, but as long as they preach the true Gospel, they are acceptable to God and part of His Bride. The Bride of Christ is not measured according to ecclesiastical boundaries, [b]but according to the unity of believers.[/b]

I'm not picking and choosing what I like. I'm choosing a church based on what I believe, according to the Word, is correct.[/quote]

Unity eh? You wont find that where your looking.

[Aloysius]

u admit you cannot find a church that has been led into all truth, but numerous churches each led into partial truth

and by this admission you inadvertantly make the claim that Jesus Christ is a liar

[MorphRC]

Yep.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='MorphRC' date='Sep 4 2004, 12:52 AM']
Unity eh? You wont find that where your looking. [/quote]
Sure I will. Maybe just not according to Rome's definition. Unity is not along ecclesiastical boundaries, but rather consists of all those who are united to Christ by faith, in Baptism, and visibly confess faith in Him.

[quote]u admit you cannot find a church that has been led into all truth, but numerous churches each led into partial truth

and by this admission you inadvertantly make the claim that Jesus Christ is a liar [/quote] The Reformed Church is always reforming (Ecclesia Reformata semper reformanda est!). Thus, Christ our Lord is always leading us deeper into Truth and knowledge of Himself, and away from Papist errors.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Sep 4 2004, 11:05 AM']Sure I will. Maybe just not according to Rome's definition. Unity is not along ecclesiastical boundaries, but rather consists of all those who are united to Christ by faith, in Baptism, and visibly confess faith in Him.[/quote]
An excellent vague Protestant response.

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Sep 4 2004, 11:05 AM']The Reformed Church is always reforming (Ecclesia Reformata semper reformanda est!). Thus, Christ our Lord is always leading us deeper into Truth and knowledge of Himself, and away from Papist errors.[/quote]
The Catholic Church herself is the spotless bride of Christ, but her members are always in need of the purifying power of grace.

[MorphRC]

[quote]Iccy: Sure I will. Maybe just not according to Rome's definition. Unity is not along ecclesiastical boundaries, but rather consists of all those who are united to Christ by faith, in Baptism, and visibly confess faith in Him.[/quote]

Ok. Well Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, Lutherans etc all do that. Yet there is no unity. Btw. Can you be less vague in your responses.

[ICTHUS]

[quote]An excellent vague Protestant response.    [/quote] How was it vague? I defined exactly what the Visible Church is.

[quote]The (Roman) Catholic Church herself is the spotless bride of Christ, but her members are always in need of the purifying power of grace.[/quote] So you say! But this is really only a restatement of your position, and not an argument for it, which is only going to work with someone who already accepts your view of the Church. I hold that the Bride of Christ does not subsist in the Roman Catholic Church, you hold that it does. Certainly, there are members of Christ's bride within her (albeit, those who hold to Roman Catholic soteriology inconsistently, for to hold to Roman soteriology consistently is to believe in salvation by works and an admixture of man's merit with God's Grace - the 'gospel' that St. Paul condemns in his [i]Letter to the Galatians[/i] - those who hold this gospel are condemned by that venerable Apostle himself with the sentence of "Anathema!") , but the Bride does not subsist therein.

Edited September 5, 2004 by ICTHUS

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='MorphRC' date='Sep 4 2004, 11:37 PM']
Ok. Well Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, Lutherans etc all do that. [b]Yet there is no unity.[/b] Btw. Can you be less vague in your responses. [/quote]
Yes, there is. I just said "Unity is not along ecclesiastical boundaries". You're going to have to argue for your position, because simply blindly contradicting me with a "No, you're wrong" won't work.

Edited September 5, 2004 by ICTHUS

[Guest JeffCR07]

Icthus, it seems to me that your position is invalidated, due to the fact that it is (in my humble opinion) an [i]argumentum absurdum[/i]. Now, I do not mean this in a derogatory way, but rather, in the manner of a philosophical critiqueof logic.

To claim that there is unity among the "faithful" of different denominations, and that no one church contains all truth is, in fact, implicitly absurd, because it necessitates the presupposition that the unity among believers is one of faith and not of ecclessiology. This is absurd because faith in this sense is closely related to theology, and there is most certainly no unity of theology among different denominations.

The only way such a stance would work is if one were to assert that the whole of Christ's Truth is contained within the lowest theological common denominator among all christian groups, and that all else is unnecessary. This seems, based on your previous posts, to be inconsistent with your views, and, for all sakes and purposes, is a logically impossible stance.

Ultimately, unity of the faithful can only be possible if there is a unity of doctrine, for if theology differs, there is clearly a division.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Sep 5 2004, 12:07 PM']

[/quote]
[quote]This is absurd because faith in this sense is closely related to theology, and there is most certainly no unity of theology among different denominations.[/quote] Not so.

Among traditional, Reformed Protestantism, there is the consensus that it is grace alone, through faith alone, that saves. Even if we throw baptismal regeneration into the mix as the Lutherans do, it is still faith alone that saves us, since baptism imparts the gift of faith. The Charismatic movement, as well as fundamentalism, denies sola Scriptura (in the classical, Reformed definition, any way) so we can count them out too. Then we're basically left with the cults, and they deny orthodox Christianity anyway.

[quote]The only way such a stance would work is if one were to assert that the whole of Christ's Truth is contained within the lowest theological common denominator among all christian groups, and that all else is unnecessary. This seems, based on your previous posts, to be inconsistent with your views, and, for all sakes and purposes, is a logically impossible stance.[/quote] Not so. The Reformed confessions and catechisms give us criterion for recognizing the Church.

[quote name=' The Belgic Confession' date=' Article 29']The true church can be recognized if it has the following marks: The church engages in the pure preaching of the gospel; it makes use of the pure administration of the sacraments as Christ instituted them; it practices church discipline for correcting faults. In short, it governs itself according to the pure Word of God, rejecting all things contrary to it and holding Jesus Christ as the only Head. By these marks one can be assured of recognizing the true church-- and no one ought to be separated from it.

As for those who can belong to the church, we can recognize them by the distinguishing marks of Christians: namely by faith, and by their fleeing from sin and pursuing righteousness, once they have received the one and only Savior, Jesus Christ. They love the true God and their neighbors, without turning to the right or left, and they crucify the flesh and its works.

Though great weakness remains in them, they fight against it by the Spirit all the days of their lives, appealing constantly to the blood, suffering, death, and obedience of the Lord Jesus, in whom they have forgiveness of their sins, through faith in him.[/quote]

[b]Augsburg Confession - Article VII - Of the Church[/b]

Also they teach that one holy Church is to continue forever. The Church is the congregation of saints, in which the Gospel is rightly taught and the Sacraments are rightly administered.

And to the true unity of the Church it is enough to agree concerning the doctrine of the Gospel and the administration of the Sacraments. Nor is it necessary that human traditions, that is, rites or ceremonies, instituted by men, should be everywhere alike. As Paul says: One faith, one Baptism, one God and Father of all, etc. Eph. 4, 5. 6.

[quote name='Westminster Confession of Faith']CHAPTER XXV.
Of the Church.
I. The catholic or universal Church, which is invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ the head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fullness of Him that filleth all in all.

II. The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the gospel (not confined to one nation as before under the law), [b]consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion, together with their children; and is the Kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ; the house and family of God, through which men are ordinarily saved and union with which is essential to their best growth and service.[/b]

III. Unto this catholic and visible Church, Christ hath given the ministry, oracles, and ordinances of God, for the gathering and perfecting of the saints, in this life, to the end of the world; and doth by his own presence and Spirit, according to his promise, make them effectual thereunto.

IV. This catholic Church hath been sometimes more, sometimes less, visible. [b]And particular Churches, which are members thereof, are more or less pure, according as the doctrine of the gospel is taught and embraced, ordinances administered, and public worship performed more or less purely in them.[/b]

V. The purest Churches under heaven are subject both to mixture and error: and some have so degenerated as to become apparently no Churches of Christ, but synagogues of Satan. Nevertheless, there shall be always a Church on earth, to worship God according to his will.

VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ: nor can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the Church against Christ, and all that is called God. [/quote]

[MorphRC]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Sep 6 2004, 03:23 AM'] Yes, there is. I just said "Unity is not along ecclesiastical boundaries". You're going to have to argue for your position, because simply blindly contradicting me with a "No, you're wrong" won't work. [/quote]
[quote]ecclesiastical boundaries[/quote] What does that mean?? Are you saying no one church can claim unity??

Your position is a constant [u]OXYMORON[/u]

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='MorphRC' date='Sep 5 2004, 06:50 PM'] What does that mean?? Are you saying no one church can claim unity??

Your position is a constant [u]OXYMORON[/u] [/quote]
No, it isn't.

Ecclesiastical boundaries means the bounds of a certain denomination or communion.

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote]Among traditional, Reformed Protestantism, there is the consensus that it is grace alone, through faith alone, that saves. Even if we throw baptismal regeneration into the mix as the Lutherans do, it is still faith alone that saves us, since baptism imparts the gift of faith. The Charismatic movement, as well as fundamentalism, denies sola Scriptura (in the classical, Reformed definition, any way) so we can count them out too. Then we're basically left with the cults, and they deny orthodox Christianity anyway.[/quote]

Icthus, regardless of how hard one might attempt to minimalize the theological differences between Sacramental and non-Sacramental Protestants, it is a huge theological discrepancy, and to claim a unity of faith between the two groups is simply a logical fallicy, for their faith is not the same.

[MorphRC]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Sep 6 2004, 12:53 PM'] No, it isn't.

Ecclesiastical boundaries means the bounds of a certain denomination or communion. [/quote]
it is.

Ok. Yet your looking for a church, which would obviously have those boundaries.

[Briguy]

Hi All, just wanted to say I feel ignored

In Christ,
Brian