Justification

[megamattman1]

I think Catholics don't understand the best argument of protestants as far as justification is concerened. I think they think that justification is where God says a sinner is really clean. Basically, God is lying. This is true for a lot of Protestants, then protestantism is pretty much all over the board.

So I would imagine that the better argument would be that God says you are clean by Jesus in that you are clean from the consequences of your sins, not that you are yourself clean. Maybe I'm just rationalizing protestantism. Incidentally then the better protestant would even say that works are necessary, just not in justifying ourselves. They are necessary to anyone with true faith.

[MorphRC]

Thanks Phat!

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote]So, what's this from the Council of Trent (I don't know the quote, sorry, but I know its there) that a man must do good works to prepare himself to be saved? [/quote]

It really isnt that hard. If Catholic doctrine and theology is anything, it is unified. It is a cohesion of a myriad of ideas, a fitting together of multiple pieces to make one puzzle. Faith and Works are one in the same, they are intrinsically tied together by a true love of Christ. A man who professes this Love with his lips or understands it in his mind, but fails to keep it in his heart and live it in his deeds is like an incomplete puzzle of salvation. To seperate works from faith (in the context of christian love) is like splitting a man in half and expecting him to walk. It is like trying to imagine Love without Patience, or Love without Kindness: they are intrinsic to each other.

Ultimately, it is this cohesion of doctrine, this unity of theology, that Apotheoun was explaining when he said (and rightly) that Justification and Sanctification are coincident with each other. Just as Love in Christ is always Patient, and Patience in Christ is always Loving, so too is Faith in Christ always working and Works in Christ always Faithful, and so too is Justification always Sanctifying and Sanctification always Justifying, for each of these things is, in reality, an inescapable unity.

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 23 2004, 05:22 PM'] So, what's this from the Council of Trent (I don't know the quote, sorry, but I know its there) that a man must do good works to prepare himself to be saved? [/quote]
the direct quote would be helpful

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='megamattman1' date='Aug 23 2004, 03:44 PM']I think Catholics don't understand the best argument of protestants as far as justification is concerened. I think they think that justification is where God says a sinner is really clean. Basically, God is lying. This is true for a lot of Protestants, then protestantism is pretty much all over the board.

So I would imagine that the better argument would be that God says you are clean by Jesus in that you are clean from the consequences of your sins, not that you are yourself clean. Maybe I'm just rationalizing protestantism. Incidentally then the better protestant would even say that works are necessary, just not in justifying ourselves. They are necessary to anyone with true faith.[/quote]
This view of the Protestant doctrine is still problematic, because the underlying cause of man's separation from God is not a "thing," it is not an "existing" quality, but is instead a lack of sanctifying or deifying grace, and so this cause must be addressed first in order for the effects flowing from it to be removed. In other words, man must be restored to a state of sanctifying (i.e. deifying) grace in order for mortal sin to be removed. Both the restoration of the state of grace and the removal of sins are necessary, but the latter is caused by the former. One cannot remain in a state of mortal sin and have his sins removed, and so the Protestant doctrine is ultimately nonsensical.

As far as the works of a Christian are concerned; they are not his works alone, for it is God working [i]in[/i], [i]with[/i], and [i]through[/i] the justified man, and so, the works performed increase the state of his justification before God. The life of a Christian is analogous to the [i]Hypostatic Union[/i] of the two natures in the one person of Christ, because just as Christ's actions were [i]theandric[/i] in nature, so too, the works of a man in a state of grace are works of God and man. Justification is an ongoing process of assimilation to God. Moreover, justification and sanctification are inseparably bound together, and the ultimate goal of this entire process is the deification of man. As St. Augustine said, "God became man, so that man might become God." [St. Augustine, [u]Sermo 13 de tempore[/u]]

God bless,
Todd

[Briguy]

Hi Folks, This is my first post here so just wanted to say hi, so "HI"

Anyway, just a quick little note on justification. Being justified to God comes only by faith/belief. To Justify is "to Prove". Our works justify us before men not God. Our works are the "proof" to the world who we are and to whom we belong. We can prove nothing to God because he knows the heart fully. He does not have to see us do things to know if we are His, he knows because he knows all. Justification to God can only be obtained by faith, based on that simple truth. I do believe justification and sanctification are one time events in terms of our salvation but they are more then that in terms of how our actions effect how we are seen by others. I will stop there for now. Take care

In Christ,
Brian

Edited August 25, 2004 by Briguy

[MorphRC]

Justify / Justified / Justification. [b]Gk.[/b] [i]Diakioun[/i] "to make upright".

[Briguy]

Hi Morph Hope your having a great day so far. I got the following when I checked the definition. Based on below, I stick to my answer. What do you think about my statement that God knows all? and that we do our works to show others our faith, not God? Let me know your thoughts. Thanks much

In Christ,
Brian

p.s. Going camping with family today so may not be able to respond until after the weekend!

Cambridge:
justify [Show phonetics]
verb [T]
to give or to be a good reason for

From Dictionary.com
jus·ti·fy v. jus·ti·fied, jus·ti·fy·ing, jus·ti·fies
v. tr.
1. To demonstrate or prove to be just, right, or valid: justified each budgetary expense as necessary; anger that is justified by the circumstances.
2. To declare free of blame; absolve.
3. To free (a human) of the guilt and penalty attached to grievous sin. Used of God.

Eastmans:
Justification - a forensic term, opposed to condemnation. As regards its nature, it is the judicial act of God, by which he pardons all the sins of those who believe in Christ, and accounts, accepts, and treats them as righteous in the eye of the law, i.e., as conformed to all its demands. In addition to the pardon (q.v.) of sin, justification declares that all the claims of the law are satisfied in respect of the justified. It is the act of a judge and not of a sovereign. The law is not relaxed or set aside, but is declared to be fulfilled in the strictest sense; and so the person justified is declared to be entitled to all the advantages and rewards arising from perfect obedience to the law (Rom. 5:1-10).
It proceeds on the imputing or crediting to the believer by God himself of the perfect righteousness, active and passive, of his Representative and Surety, Jesus Christ (Rom. 10:3-9). Justification is not the forgiveness of a man without righteousness, but a declaration that he possesses a righteousness which perfectly and for ever satisfies the law, namely, Christ's righteousness (2 Cor. 5:21; Rom. 4:6-8).
The sole condition on which this righteousness is imputed or credited to the believer is faith in or on the Lord Jesus Christ. Faith is called a "condition," not because it possesses any merit, but only because it is the instrument, the only instrument by which the soul appropriates or apprehends Christ and his righteousness (Rom. 1:17; 3:25, 26; 4:20, 22; Phil. 3:8-11; Gal. 2:16).

justification
Encyclopædia Britannica Article

in Christian theology, either (1) the act by which God moves a person from the state of sin (injustice) to the state of grace (justice); (2) the change in a person's condition as he moves from a state of sin to a state of righteousness; or (3) especially in Protestantism, the act of acquittal whereby God gives contrite sinners the status of the righteous.

[MorphRC]

It doesnt give the Greek. It doesnt even explain what language it comes from. Ill answer back in an hour. Roy and HG are on.

[MorphRC]

Justification - Judicial Thinking
Simple, Basic Teaching of Justification

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=18572"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=18572[/url]

[Briguy]

Morph, sorry about the delay in getting back to you. Hope you have been well. I read what you had linked to and agreed with some things. This in particular struck me:

"One is justified by faith, as mentioned through Romans, this means once a person truly believes in God, Jesus Christ as the Messiah, they are wiped of all sin."


Later in the post Baptism is added but that goes against what is said above. At any rate what I was hoping from you was a response to my saying that God knows all and so anything we do can't "Prove" or "make us right" with God because he knows all of our choices and actions before they happen. If possible, just deal with that issue. Thanks much
Take Care,
In Christ,
Brian

[Guest JeffCR07]

Briguy, welcome to phatmass! I hope you'll stick around and I'll talk with you on other topics!

I would just like to clarify that for catholics, it is impossible to speak on "justification" without also speaking on "sanctification." As catholics, we believe that justification and sanctification happen simultaneously. Sanctification, which is the grace of God transforming our hearts and minds and making us truly upright and righteous, is a wellspring from which Faith, Works, and most importantly, Love all pour forth. Thus, for a catholic, we do not do good works in the hopes that we will "prove" to God our goodness, but rather, we do good works because Christ's grace is living within us, and working through us.

I hope that helps!

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[ICTHUS]

Jeff, in Roman Catholic soteriology, does justification involve an element of imputation? (ie. the way I've heard it explained, by prominent scholars such as Scott Hahn, is that God declares to a person "You are just", thus imputing Christ's righteousness to them by faith. However, that declaration then goes forth in power to actually make that person ontologically righteous)

[Aloysius]

ICTHUS, that seems quite plausible, I could come to accept that notion pending further evidence...

[Guest JeffCR07]

Icthus, while I admit that I am not positive with regards to that particular question, I would be wary of claiming such a distinctive seperation. What God declares must ontologically be so, and it is certainly true that we are saved by Christ's merits alone, however, Sanctification (and Justification) are lifelong processes, and so to seperate the two, and to make it seem as if this "event" takes place at a particular moment may be an error.

I know that you may view this as a non-answer, but at this point in time, it is the best that I can do. If you really want a definitive answer, just PM me and I'd be more than happy to work with you to find the solution!

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[MorphRC]

Q. Why does the Catholic Church baptize infants, who have no understanding of what is taking place?


A. The Catholic Church baptizes infants because Christ wills it. He must will it because He said, “Suffer the little children, and forbid them not to come to me.” (Matt 19:14). According to the Apostle Paul, one cannot truly come to Christ except through Baptism. (Rom. 6:3-4). Christ must will it because the Apostles baptized “all the people” (Luke 3:21) and whole households (Acts 16:15, 1 Cor. 1:16). Certainly “all the people” and whole “households” included infants. Christ must will it because He stated categorically that Baptism is a necessary prerequisite for salvation (John 3:5), and He certainly desires the salvation of infants. He must will it because the primitive Christian Church, which had fresh firsthand knowledge of His Will, baptized infants. In the ancient catacombs of Rome the inscriptions on the tombs of infants make mention of their having been baptized. One such inscription reads: “Here rests Archillia, a newly-baptized: she was one year and five months old; died February 23rd.”

An unbaptized infant is not simply in a “natural” state; it is in the state of reprobation, living under the reign of Satan, with the sin of Adam “staining” its soul. Therefore infants should be baptized as soon as is reasonably possible—usually within 2-3 weeks of birth. When children grow up with Our Lord dwelling in their souls, they have a powerful protection against sin. Moreover, Our Lord can thereby draw children to a deep love for Himself at a very early age ans he did with St. Therese, St. Maria Goretti, St. Dominic Savio, and Fransisco and Jacinta Marto.



Taken from "The Catholic Church has the Answer"

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Aug 31 2004, 02:45 PM']Jeff, in Roman Catholic soteriology, does justification involve an element of imputation? (ie. the way I've heard it explained, by prominent scholars such as Scott Hahn, is that God declares to a person "You are just", thus imputing Christ's righteousness to them by faith. However, that declaration then goes forth in power to actually make that person ontologically righteous)[/quote]
When justifying grace is infused into a man, it is really imparted to him and not merely imputed to him as some kind of foreign or extrinsic righteousness. In other words, the man in question really, and not in mere appearance, becomes just before God. This is a gift of God and not something that the man has earned, any more than the act of faith he has made in Christ under the impulse of grace is something he has done alone.

The justified man is an icon of Christ, and so just as Christ is one Divine Person in two natures, divine and human, and just as Christ's actions are properly theandric; so too, the justified man is one created human person who operates in two natures, human by nature and divine by grace. There is an analogy between justification and the incarnation, and so to deny that man, under the power of grace, cooperates with God, is to fall into a form of anthropological monothelitism or monophystism. Thus it follows that the works of a Christian, which are really his works, are also God's works, in, with, and through him.

Now, any doctrine that teaches that man receives an "imputed" righteousness, all the while remaining intrinsically unjust because the righteousness given is foreign or extrinsic to his being, would be unacceptable to the Catholic Church. Justification can only be called imputed when it includes an infusion of grace that really changes man from within. Therefore the terms "imputed" and "imparted" cannot be legitimately separated, because what God imputes to man He simultaneously imparts to him. What God declares to be so, is so, and not merely in appearance or as a type of covering, but as an ontological reality.

The part of your post that concerns me is the following phrase: ". . . thus imputing Christ's righteousness to them by faith. [i]However, that declaration [b]then goes forth in power[/b] to actually make that person ontologically righteous[/i]." If by this phrase you are implying a type of separation between the imputation and the imparting of the righteousness given by grace, this temporal delay would be unacceptable in Catholic doctrine.

[MorphRC]

Ichtus what religion are you?? You ascribe to anglicanism, calvinism, protestantisim, forms of evangelists, do you pick and choose what u like, then make ur own or what?

[Briguy]

Hi Jeff, Thanks for the nice post. I will check the board from time to time and discuss things as I can. You wrote:

"Thus, for a catholic, we do not do good works in the hopes that we will "prove" to God our goodness, but rather, we do good works because Christ's grace is living within us, and working through us".

I serve Jesus Christ for the same reason. I am so thankful that he saved a mess like me, that I serve him gladly. I was justified (made right with God) when I truted Jesus by faith to forgive my sins). I was sanctified (set apart) at the same time. Made right with God and set apart to serve Him, what an awesome thing. Here though is where I believe we part ways. If I get down for a while and serve less or doubt God because of some tragic or even less then tragic event, I don't lose my justification or sanctification. In the Catholic view I am in danger of tipping the scales the wrong way and losing what was given me by my Faith in Christ. I believe it is possible for the Christian to doubt (Peter did) and I believe it is possible at times for the Christian to fail God (Peter and Paul did). I really believe and trust and cling to the fact that when I was saved God reached down and grabbed me, I did not reach up and grab Him. Because of that, I know that He is faithful, even if my faith waivers at times and my "works" diminish for a season, He will not let go of me, for He is perfect. My justification and sanctification were sealed at that very moment I went into His hand. I need to believe that because I know how I am and what I think, etc... I thank God all the time that He is faithful and Strong, because often in the battles with the world I am not. Hope that makes sense.

Would love to comment on Baptism but that would be off subject. Hopefully can discuss that at another time.

In Christian Love,
Brian

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='MorphRC' date='Sep 1 2004, 02:29 AM'] Christ must will it because the Apostles baptized “all the people” (Luke 3:21) and whole households (Acts 16:15, 1 Cor. 1:16). Certainly “all the people” and whole “households” included infants. [/quote]
Why do people forget this? It seems perfectly logical to me that not everyone in the household would be of an age where they could understand & accept God's salvation on their own, but the head of the household took the initiative so that the child could be covered in God's grace and brought to Him. Thanks, Morph!