Justification

[Brother Adam]

Brian,

Your arguments are collapsing on themself. Of course the writings of men can be subject to error, but that doesn't mean all writing will be in error. Face it, Protestant/non-denominational bookstores are filled with 10's of thousands of books on interpreting the Bible. Men always look to teachers and persons of authority for the interpretation of scripture. Scripture itself is not sufficent or the only text to ever be carried in a Christian bookstore would be the un-translated Bible, for Bible translation itself can be in error.

This is why the Church, the Pillar and Foundation of Truth is also left to us. To give us not only the Holy Scriptures but a foundation of teaching of which we can have the assurance that it is correct.

Yes, maybe a minor error here and there can be found in the writings of some of the Church Fathers, but as a whole the first 2000 years of harmony in the writings produced by the Church has made a powerful statement.

[Briguy]

Thess, just for starters.

1 Cor. 11:
1] Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
[2] Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
[3] But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
[4] Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
[5] But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
[6] For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

What we have here is Paul sharing some general "assembly" rules, not doctrine. KJV says ordinances, not tradtion. Again, this is a case of trying to make a verse stand on its own and it just does not work. Paul says here to remember him and the Assembly "blueprint" that he brought. He then goes on to list exactly some of the things he is talking about. In Chapt 12,13,14, he continues with this blue print of how the gathered "assembly" should look.

Thess. I noticed that only once or twice you use more then one verse at a time. It may be cumbersome but try to include sections so we can get a feel for context, as I just showed how important that is. Also, I try to just give my interpretations on sections of scripture but over the years I have read lots of communtaries that I am sure influence what I say. When stumped I will go to communtaries for help.

Not to be off topic, but if we can't rely on ourselves for scripture interpretation why are we told to search the scritures daily. In fact, you would think it would say to be taught by tour ordained leaders daily. I will have to find the verse I am thinking about and post it, with others verses as well (so I don't break my own rule).

I will skip the trusted friend and look at other things here and the other thread, which I have not really looked at yet.

In Christ who saves,
Brian

[thessalonian]

"What we have here is Paul sharing some general "assembly" rules, not doctrine. KJV says ordinances, not tradtion. "

How ever did you come to this conclusion if you don't mind. "be like me in ALL THINGS" does not include Christlike charity which is certainly doctrinal? Ordinances do not include God's commandments and these are optional practices and not doctrine? The greek word is a form of paradosis by the way which is tradition. The head covertings thing is a PRACTICE certainly which I think I spoke of with regard to a type of Catholic tradition. But I highly doudt that is what Paul is praising them for "Oh you wear head coverings you women, very nice. I praise you for it". The word but indicates a transition to a different topic it seems to me. I praise you for holding the ordinaces but it seems to me that some of you are not wearing head coverings when you prophesy. This teaching of his carries with it doctrinal elements of course such as Christ being the head of the Church so I do not see how you can be so conclusive in your assessment.
Brian I hate to bring this up but it seems to me that your false tradition of Sola Scriptura forces you to nullify the word of God in many places. I am being as gentle as I can about it. Now you show me where having sacred oral traditions force me to nullify the word of God. I challenge you on this. My belief in sacred oral tradition increases my faith in Christ.

You have Bibles, I have no problem with you looking up the verses and seeing the context. Anyone else may as well. I am not trying to hide anything but my posts tend to be rather long and I try quote scripture alot. They are going to get a bit unwieldy.

As for your question about trusting your own interprutations I would suggest you look at Proverbs 3:5 and Jer 3:15.

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
And DO NOT LEAN ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING.
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He will make your paths straight.
Do not be wise in your own eyes;
Fear the LORD and turn away from evil.

Now of course a Part of trusting in the Lord is reading his word. But as you said above we get alot of what we believe from commentaries. In fact I would bet you it's alot more than you will ever admit. Enter Jer 3:15

Jeremiah 3:15
"Then I will give you shepherds after My own heart, who will feed you on knowledge and understanding.

But these shepherds cannot be any old shepherd throwing out any dogma. God's Church worships in "spirit and in truth". So it is not to all come from the Bible and a part of relying on the Lord is relying on him to send good shepherds as well.

Blessings




God bless

Edited November 3, 2004 by thessalonian