On Heretics

[CatholicCrusader]

"[i]Abhor all heretics[/i]...[i]heed not their fair speaking or their mock humility[/i]; for they are serpents, a 'brood of vipers.' Remember that, when Judas said 'Hail Rabbi,' the salutation was an act of betrayal. Do not be deceived by the kiss but beware of the venom. Abhor such men, therefore, and shun [i]the blasphemers of the Holy Ghost, for whom there is no pardon[/i]. For what fellowship have you with men [i]without hope[/i]? [b]Let us confidently say to God regarding all heretics, 'Have I not hated them, O Lord, that hated thee: and pine away because of thy enemies?'[/b] For there is an enmity that is laudable, as it is written, 'I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed.' Friendship with the serpent produces enmity with God, and death. [i]Let us shun those from whom God turns away[/i]."

We should all take this to heart.

Mortal Sins against the First Commandment:

1. Have I denied that I was a Catholic, or openly expressed my disbelief in [i]any[/i] doctrine of the Catholic Faith?

[b]2. Have I affiliated myself, even for a short time, with a non-Catholic sect or body?[/b]

3. Have I suggested or encouraged doubts about the Catholic faith in the minds of others?

[b]4. Have I seriously expressed the opinion that all religion are equally good or equally true or equally pleasing to God?[/b]

5. Have I neglected to settle, by reading, studying, consulting, etc., serious doubts about my faith, when such neglect was evidently leading to a loss of faith?

6. Have I, without the necessary permission, read or kept or given other forbidden books, [b]such as protestant bibles[/b], books that pretend to profess to disprove the truth of the Catholic faith or that profess to prove the truth of a religion contrary to my faith?

[b]7. Have I, without a serious reason, associated with persons who tried to destroy my faith?[/b]

[b]8. Have I attended meetings or listened to speeches or sermons which I knew would destroy or seriously weaken my faith?[/b]

9. Have I joined a secret society forbidden by the Church, such as the Masons, the Oddfellows, ect.?

[u][b]10. Have I taken part in protestant or other heretical church services?[/b][/u]

11. Have I contributed to the advancement of a non-Catholic religious sect or movement as such?

12. Have I consulted a fortune-teller in the serious belief that I could learn something about the future, or made others think that I could tell their future when I knew that there was no adequate natural means of doing so?

[b]13. Have I attended a spiritualistic séance?[/b]

14. Have I planned to marry, or actually pretended to enter the state of marriage, before a minister, or a judge, or a civil magistrate? Have I approved of other Catholics doing this or stood up for them when they did it?

[b]15. Have I, without the necessary permission or reason, sent my children to a non-Catholic grade school, or approved of other Catholics doing so? Or without serious reason approved by the diocesan authorities, to a non-Catholic high school or university?[/b] Or have I done these things without making any provision to safeguard the faith of my children?

"[The Church] is the entrance to life; [i]all[/i] others are thieves and robbers. [i]On this account we are bound to avoid them[/i]... We hear it declared of the unbelieving and the blinded of this world that [i]they shall not inherit the world of life [/i]which is to come... Resist them in defense of the [i]only true and life giving faith[/i], which the Church has received from the Apostles and imparted to her sons." St. Irenaeus

Examination of Conscience adapted from Rev. Donald F. Miller, C.SS.R.

[Azriel]

Hmmm ... I'd be willing to bet you'd not be real happy to find out a few of us are married to non Catholics.

Myself included.

I bet I'd win that bet too.

[mulls]

AWESOME!!!



since I contribute to phatmass, I contribute to Catholics speaking with heretics, (as in myself) so I guess I would be considered guilty for premise #2...... so it looks like I have all of your blood on my hands. but probably not as much as dUSt, since he's responsible for all of you Catholics talking with us heretics.


it's totally logical.




hahahhaha.

Edited August 31, 2004 by mulls

[dUSt]

CC, you should like people more.

[Paladin D]

CC, you have a lot of hate. I guess I have to put you down now...

*Loads his blaster*

[MorphRC]

Interesting.

[Archaeology cat]

Glad my boyfriend didn't listen to the "not associating with Protestants" part. True, I'm converting because I feel it's God's will. I actually attend 2 churches, Mass and then a Methodist church with my family, and I feel God's Spirit present in both, so I don't see the problem.

[cmotherofpirl]

3. Have I suggested or encouraged doubts about the Catholic faith in the minds of others?


CC You cause me to doubt my faith on a regular basis...

[dUSt]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Aug 31 2004, 07:45 AM'] 3. Have I suggested or encouraged doubts about the Catholic faith in the minds of others?


CC You cause me to doubt my faith on a regular basis... [/quote]
Ditto.

[Azriel]

Yup. Me too.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Moreover, I would like to point out that the source of the above examination of concsience, (while I did like many of the points, but that is aside) is not anything binding, nor is there any reason to think that it holds the imprimatur or nihil obstat. It seems to me, CC, that you have a strikingly warped view of what the Church teaches. Perhaps spiritual direction from an orthodox priest, who is loyal and faithful to the living Magisterium, would be beneficial.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[toledo_jesus]

While I do believe completely and utterly that the Catholic faith is the end all and be all for religion, I also believe that the only way we can help others is to associate with them. Closing ourselves off from heretics or protestants or other religions will only drive them further away. We have to live UNCOMPROMISINGLY among them, and by our example sway them to the fullness of truth.
In that sense, CC's post makes sense as we must believe we are #1, and act like it. That means we share the wealth.

[Archaeology cat]

I mean, doesn't Paul say we should live among the people of the world, but not be of the world. Through our actions and the presence of the Holy Spirit as we associate with the other people, they will be drawn to God through us. I think I just restated what you said, toledo.

[jasJis]

[quote]3. Have I suggested or encouraged doubts about the Catholic faith in the minds of others?[/quote]
As I've been saying. dUSt has to consider the answer to this question when he evaluates how he runs this board. He has to consider the age, emotional maturity, and the maturity of faith for those who come and visit and post here. Considering this is "[i]Phat[/i]Mass", a Catholic board with the 'hook' of hip-hop music, it's safe to say that 25+ yr olds isn't exactly the target demographics.

Your continued insistence that this board must accomodate your agenda is sinful as it disregards and refuses to consider the moral constraints and obligations that dUSt must consider when he runs this phorum. You are being selfish and careless of others. You were in Church this Sunday I would suppose. You heard the 1st reading from Sirach. It was telling us not to worry over things that were beyond our mental comprehension. Don't force worries on people who cannot handle them.

[ironmonk]

It seems some here have totally missed the point and are having a problem connecting the dots.

There are dogs and swine which need to be rejected.

Someone who is sincerely seeking truth are not dogs and swine.

It boggles my mind how some people cannot pay attention to the whole (many other posts) instead of getting tunnel vision about one post or quote.

When people post, all their other posts about the topic or related topic should be taken into consideration.... not just the one post.



As for mixed marriages, here is what the Church has to say...
[quote]
Mixed marriages and disparity of cult
[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt3art7.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt3art7.htm[/url]

[b]1633 [/b]
In many countries the situation of a mixed marriage (marriage between a Catholic and a baptized non-Catholic) often arises. It requires particular attention on the part of couples and their pastors. A case of marriage with disparity of cult (between a Catholic and a non-baptized person) requires even greater circumspection.


[b]1634 [/b]
Difference of confession between the spouses does not constitute an insurmountable obstacle for marriage, when they succeed in placing in common what they have received from their respective communities, and learn from each other the way in which each lives in fidelity to Christ. But the difficulties of mixed marriages must not be underestimated. They arise from the fact that the separation of Christians has not yet been overcome. The spouses risk experiencing the tragedy of Christian disunity even in the heart of their own home. Disparity of cult can further aggravate these difficulties. Differences about faith and the very notion of marriage, but also different religious mentalities, can become sources of tension in marriage, especially as regards the education of children. The temptation to religious indifference can then arise.


[b]1635 [/b]
According to the law in force in the Latin Church, a mixed marriage needs for liceity the express permission of ecclesiastical authority.137 In case of disparity of cult an express dispensation from this impediment is required for the validity of the marriage.138 This permission or dispensation presupposes that both parties know and do not exclude the essential ends and properties of marriage; and furthermore that the Catholic party confirms the obligations, which have been made known to the non-Catholic party, of preserving his or her own faith and ensuring the baptism and education of the children in the Catholic Church.139


[b]1636 [/b]
Through ecumenical dialogue Christian communities in many regions have been able to put into effect a common pastoral practice for mixed marriages. Its task is to help such couples live out their particular situation in the light of faith, overcome the tensions between the couple's obligations to each other and towards their ecclesial communities, and encourage the flowering of what is common to them in faith and respect for what separates them.


[b]1637 [/b]
In marriages with disparity of cult the Catholic spouse has a particular task: "For the unbelieving husband is consecrated through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is consecrated through her husband."140 It is a great joy for the Christian spouse and for the Church if this "consecration" should lead to the free conversion of the other spouse to the Christian faith.141 Sincere married love, the humble and patient practice of the family virtues, and perseverance in prayer can prepare the non-believing spouse to accept the grace of conversion.[/quote]



God Bless,
ironmonk

[Cam42]

So here is a thought.....the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches us this about heresy:

CCC 2089: "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same.

While we are to be wary of them, we are also to minister to them. If we have no tolerance for those who don't accept what we believe, then how are we to correct them? Beating them over the head with the Catechism and Bible, I think not.

We als have to be very careful in the use of the word heresy or heretic. The Church doesn't use it very often and when she does, she is very specific on the definiton and application.

Also, did you know that there are two types of heresy? The Church expressly distinguishes between "formal" and "material" heretics. A "formal" heretic rejects the Church and its teaching absolutely and with full deliberation; a "material" heretic rejects the Church from lack of knowledge, being influenced by false prejudice or by an anti-Catholic upbringing.

So, which kind of heresy are you talking about? Formal heretics or material heretics? Once we have discerned that.....we can then talk about applying the teaching as defined in the CCC stated above.

As was said earlier, the examen, is a good one, but not binding in anyway....

What is the Greatest Commandment again? Mt 22:34-40. And where does it say that they have to believe what we do in order to follow?

Cam42

[catholicguy]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Aug 30 2004, 11:53 PM'] CC, you should like people more. [/quote]
[quote]CC, you have a lot of hate.[/quote]

I am sorry, but this just seems humorous to me... all he did was post two quotes from Saints and an examination of the First Commandment. How exactly, may I ask, is that hate and dislike? I thought admonishing the sinner/sin was a spiritual act of mercy.

[catholicguy]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Aug 31 2004, 07:45 AM'] 3. Have I suggested or encouraged doubts about the Catholic faith in the minds of others?


CC You cause me to doubt my faith on a regular basis... [/quote]
Hmm... CC, as far as I have read his posts, seems very Catholic and orthodox to me... could the problem be that you do not follow the Catholic faith fully, such as I assume you mean EENS?

[Cam42]

"I thought admonishing the sinner/sin was a spiritual act of mercy."

It is, but that is not what was going on......there must be a sense of charity involved. We cannot simply tee off on a person because he doesn't believe what we do.

The Church also teaches that there are aspects of truth in other Faiths. The problem is that there is not the fullness of the truth, as found in the Church.

CCC 818: "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by
faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right
to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in
the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

This is part of the reason why the Church is so careful about the stating of one as a heretic or of a group in heresy. Although it does happen, look at the SSPX and the Apostolic Letter Ecclesia Dei.

Cam42

[Azriel]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Aug 31 2004, 10:08 AM'] It seems some here have totally missed the point and are having a problem connecting the dots.

There are dogs and swine which need to be rejected.

Someone who is sincerely seeking truth are not dogs and swine.

It boggles my mind how some people cannot pay attention to the whole (many other posts) instead of getting tunnel vision about one post or quote.

When people post, all their other posts about the topic or related topic should be taken into consideration.... not just the one post.



As for mixed marriages, here is what the Church has to say...




God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
Hey bro ... not sure who you posted this for ... but let me clarify something for everyone ...

I said what I said because CC posts regarding heretics have been rampant. What I gather from his posts is that we, as Catholics, are never ever to associate with anyone that is not.

So, therefore in his brain ... I must have committed a mortal sin by marrying a non Catholic - since all non Catholics are obviously heretics. (realize that I'm making some logic leaps here)

Eventhough I was granted dispensation by my Dioscean Bishop - (as the Cathechism references you provided supports - and thank you for that, btw)