Speaking In Tounges

[flip]

All of my encounters with speaking in tounges are people that basically mumble loudly and make no sense, with no interpreter...


pleas correct me if i am wrong, but isnt speaking in tounges mean that people speak in other languages and not just "hummmna hummmna blah blah magitttty"?

and where are the interpreters?




what the deal yo?

[Aloysius]

I aggree with you.

my friend and I were talking about it, and I faked it for her (cause it's so easy to do)... it just seems like random blabber to me.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

C.S. Lewis alluded to this type of behavior in the Screwtape Letters. He didn't mention speaking in tongues directly, but rather a way that people use to convince themselves that they have a spiritual life when they don't.

The clearest indication being that if its just pretend, then it won't impact your daily actions and it won't make you act like a Christian...it will just make you sometimes be very showy about far out sorts of things to make others think you are a devout Christian.

[toledo_jesus]

never experienced it. Don't think I'd believe it if I saw it...

[dUSt]

The Bible diminishes the importance of speaking in tongues compared to the other gifts of the Spirit (love, faith, hope). It also speaks of how you should be silent unless the people around you can actually understand what you're saying. See 1 Corinthians 14.

"Whoever speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but whoever prophesies builds up the church. Now I should like all of you to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. One who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be built up. Now, brothers, if I should come to you speaking in tongues, what good will I do you if I do not speak to you by way of revelation, or knowledge, or prophecy, or instruction? Likewise, if inanimate things that produce sound, such as flute or harp, do not give out the tones distinctly, how will what is being played on flute or harp be recognized? And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? [b]Similarly, if you, because of speaking in tongues, do not utter intelligible speech, how will anyone know what is being said? For you will be talking to the air.[/b]"

[p0lar_bear]

I'm too lazy to repeat my discussion on this....

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=13692&hl=tongues&st=25"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showt...l=tongues&st=25[/url]

[Scofizzle]

Polar bear...hahahha...thats something I would do

[Scofizzle]

As far as speaking in tounges goes.....

I have experienced speaking in tounges, but it was in a crowd of 5000 people so I have no idea if there was an interpreter. I personally believe that someone can be consumed in the spririt and speak in tongues. I think the thing I ask myself is... could this be real? is God capable of doing this in any case?...yes..... would he? maybe not....I have also seen instances (mainly involving some of our protestant brothers and sisters) who claim to be able to speak in tongues on comand...I do not think that is realy the holy spirit.

[Briguy]

Scofizzle, what you need to do is search the scriptures and see what the Bible really says about the purpose of tongues and then the truth on them will be clear. Tongues were a sign to "unbelieving Isreal" that a judgement of God was coming. Tongues pointed to a time when God would scatter the Jews for rejecting His Son. That happened in 70AD. Once the judgement came the sign faded way (i.e. if you are driving and a sign says "steep hill ahead", once you pass the hill no more signs for that hill are needed), as Paul said it would. Anyway, that was a very quick overview of the Tongues issue. Tongue speakers today are good well meaning people, but do not have any gift to do what they are doing, they are mistaken in their understanding. Hope that didn't sound too prideful or overly direct, it was not intended that way

Take care,
In Christ,
Brian

[Archaeology cat]

I don't agree that there isn't still the gift of tongues. It's still a sign for unbelievers, as I know many non-Christians who have heard Christians speak in tongues and it has served as that final sign for them that God is real & powerful. I've heard quite a few people speak in tongues, some genuine, some not. It seems fairly easy to tell who's doing it for show and who is being sincere. The one truly sincere I've heard had an interpreter, the others didn't, so I didn't pay attention to them.

[Scofizzle]

[quote name='Briguy' date='Sep 2 2004, 07:46 AM'] Hope that didn't sound too prideful or overly direct, it was not intended that way

[/quote]
I don't think thats the case. There are still non-believers out there and it can be used as a sign for them (weak argument, I know but true). I personally won't put it past the Holy Spirit to move in someone however it wishes. While someone may be speaking in tongues I have not been givent he gift of interpretation. So the "sign" was obviously not meant for me, but i just happened to see it. If I personally pass the "hill ahead" sign it is still there for those who are on the road behind me.

[QUOTE]

We're all friends here and it is almost impossible to convey emotions online. And it's we are on the bedate table so thre can be condusion of feelings.

Peace

[HartfordWhalers]

[quote name='Scofizzle' date='Sep 2 2004, 01:24 AM'] As far as speaking in tounges goes.....

I have experienced speaking in tounges, but it was in a crowd of 5000 people so I have no idea if there was an interpreter. I personally believe that someone can be consumed in the spririt and speak in tongues. I think the thing I ask myself is... could this be real? is God capable of doing this in any case?...yes..... would he? maybe not....I have also seen instances (mainly involving some of our protestant brothers and sisters) who claim to be able to speak in tongues on comand...I do not think that is realy the holy spirit. [/quote]
Most Priests I have talked to say that these gifts can only be found in the Church, since to allow them to be found outside the Church would be to support heresy. I have also read from Fr. Harden that protestant "tongues" are not from God but the devil.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='HartfordWhalers' date='Sep 2 2004, 12:37 PM'] I have also read from Fr. Harden that protestant "tongues" are not from God but the devil. [/quote]
Why is that? I'm not mad, just wanting clarification. My take on that is based on Scripture. You know when the apostles were getting mad because someone else was casting out demons in the name of Jesus? And Jesus said not to get mad, because those who are for us can't be against us? (Mark 9, 38"Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."
39"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me,). So, as far as I can tell, those who are truly doing it because God's power is on them at the time, aren't being heretical. Granted there are some who do it for show, but when the experience is drawing people to God, then I say it's legitimate.

[HartfordWhalers]

[quote name='shinobininjasp' date='Sep 2 2004, 11:50 AM'] Why is that? I'm not mad, just wanting clarification. My take on that is based on Scripture. You know when the apostles were getting mad because someone else was casting out demons in the name of Jesus? And Jesus said not to get mad, because those who are for us can't be against us? (Mark 9,  38"Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."
39"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me,).  So, as far as I can tell, those who are truly doing it because God's power is on them at the time, aren't being heretical. Granted there are some who do it for show, but when the experience is drawing people to God, then I say it's legitimate. [/quote]
He also said, though, about those who cast out demons in His Name: "Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, [b]I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity[/b]." St. Matthew 7: 22-23.

By the way, if it's not leading people to the Church, then it's not leading people to God.

Edited September 2, 2004 by HartfordWhalers

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote]Granted there are some who do it for show, but when the experience is drawing people to God, then I say it's legitimate. [/quote]

Unless the experience is drawing people to a false impression of God.

[BullnaChinaShop]

The problem of whether it is the Holy Spirit or a demon causing someone to speak in tounges arises when there is no interpreter of what is being said. If no one knows what someone speaking in tounges is saying they could be praising God but they could also be blasheming him and not even know it.

[Briguy]

Scofizzle, thanks for the post. I like the charity I see on this board so far. Anyway, my steep hill example still works because in that example the sign is only meant for the driver of one car. In this case Tongues are a sign only for unbelieving Isreal. Paul Quotes directly from Isaiah 28 which is speaking directly of judgement of the house of Isreal. The point is that the sign pointed to the judgement and destruction of Jerulsalem which then happened in 70AD. Tongues then faded away after that, just as Paul said when he said they would cease. The greek word meaning "fade away on their own". So, I believe based on that pure Bible logic that Tongues began to fade away on 70AD and were gone by about 100AD when those who had the gift died. Hope that clarifies my position.

Hi All, Try to deal directly with my argument and we will see if it stands. Thanks Much!

In Christ,
Brian

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='HartfordWhalers' date='Sep 2 2004, 01:00 PM'] He also said, though, about those who cast out demons in His Name: "Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, [b]I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity[/b]." St. Matthew 7: 22-23.

By the way, if it's not leading people to the Church, then it's not leading people to God. [/quote]
I can see what you mean, that the people may not be doing it of God. That wording was bad, but you know what I mean. But if it somehow brings people to God, okay. And you're right, it can't be leading people to God if it's not leading them to His Church. Sorry if I implied that I thought otherwise. I'm not very comfortable around people speaking in tongues unless there's an interpreter, because I don't know what's being said.

[Scofizzle]

Mark 16: 15-18

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. 17 And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
(This is from Jesus when he appears to the apostles after the resurection)

In this quote it seems as though any of us who believe, these signs will come. Its almost as if we are expected to do these things. There is no mention here of this being restricted to just Israel. Even when Paul speaks directly of an unbelieving Israel I don't think it is limited to just that.

[Scofizzle]

[b]This is Polar Bear's previous post....not mine.....but since he only linked to it I will post cuz its got good info. I like this little debate we're having very fun.[/b]

From previous threads on the matter:


The Charismatic Renewal is not something new in the Church, which is why it is called a renewal. What is now called the charismatic movement and what are now called the charismatic gifts have always been part of the life of the Church and are especially evident in the lives of exceptionally holy persons, i.e. saints. The current movement is to encourage awareness in the reality of these gifts and a devotion to the Holy Spirit.

Prayer tongues are different from the gift of tongues that requires an interpreter. If someone is going to speak to the group, as with a message for the group, there does need to be an interpreter there or the group is not edified. However, prayer tongues can be used without interpreters. Either way, these are always real languages, not gibberish, that the speaker does not know. There have been cases where someone who knows an obscure language hears someone praying in tongues and recognizes the language. It can also be a language that is no longer used or is known by only a few people.

While many people do maintain that most if not all people should have a prayer tongue, I disagree with them. However, everyone should be open to it. Everyone should be open to whatever the Lord wants to give them and especially to the movement of the Holy Spirit.

It is important that charismatic groups, as well as any other group, remains fully under the spiritual direction of the Church. Any group that contradicts the Church or defies the legitimate authority of Her ministers is no longer following the Holy Spirit.

There are dangers with this, as there are with any movement. However, if the people are properly catechized and guided on the existence and proper use of the "charismatic" gifts, there is a great benefit to be had not only by those participating, but also by the whole Church.

Both the Holy Father and Cardinal Ratzinger have made statements in favor of the current movement. It is inappropriate, then, for any of the faithful to maintain that the movement is outside of or contrary to the Church.

Devotion to the Holy Spirit is devotion to God. We should be no less eager to have a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit than we are to have one with the Father or the Son. In fact, I would go so far as to say that devotion to the Holy Spirit is required by the faith (something that cannot be said, btw, of Marian devotion). If one has a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit and is open to everything He offers, it seems likely that he will experience a baptism of the Holy Spirit, and receive at least one of the "charismatic" gifts. (That does not mean that it will necessarily be a dramatic event, as often happens within the Charismatic Renewal Movement.) There may be those that God, in His infinite wisdom, chooses not to give any of the "charismatic" gifts. However, I think that the evidence presented by the saints does indicate that the presence of "charismatic" gifts is not outside the norm for a life of holiness.


In a May 30, 1998 audience, the Holy Father said:



QUOTE
The institutional and charismatic aspects are co-essential as it were to the Church's constitution. They contribute although differently to the life, renewal, and sanctification of God's People. It is from this providential rediscovery of the Church's charismatic dimension that before and after the Council, a remarkable pattern of growth has been established for ecclecial movements and new communities.




QUOTE
Today I would like to cry out to all of you gather here in St. Peter's Square and to all Christians: Open yourselves docily to the gifts of the Spirit! Accept gratefully and obediently the charisms which the Spirit never ceases to bestow on us!




QUOTE
It is essential...that every movement submit to the discernment fo the competent ecclesiastical authority. For this reason no charism can dispense with reference and submission to the Pastors of the Church. The Council wrote in clear words: 'Those who have charge over the Church should judge the genuiness and proper use of these gifts, through their office not indeed to extinquish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to what is good (cf. 1 Thes 5:12; 19-21) (Lumen Gentium, no. 12). This is the necessary guarantee that you are taking the right road.




See also his June 24, 1992 General Audience. [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...19920624en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...19920624en.html[/url]


In their 1997 document "Grace for the New Springtime," the USCCB discussed, and affirmed the Charismatic Renewal. The only quote I already have typed out from the document is regarding the baptism of the Holy Spirit:


QUOTE
As experienced in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal baptism in the Holy Spirit makes Jesus Christ known and loved as Lord and Savior, establishes or reestablishes an immediacy of relationship with all those persons of the Trinity, and through inner transformation affects the whole of the Christian’s life. There is new life and a new conscious awareness of God’s power and presence. It is a grace experience which touches every dimension of the Church’s life: worship, preaching, teaching, ministry, evangelism, prayer and spirituality, service and community. Because of this, it is our conviction that baptism in the Holy Spirit, understood as the reawakening in Christian experience of the presence and action of the Holy Spirit given in Christian initiation, and manifested in a broad range of charisms, including those closely associated with the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, is part of the normal Christian life.




Cardinal Ratzinger's statement is in "The Ratzinger Report." It is a passing mention of new ecclesial movements that are to be commended.


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"It is utter folly to think that one can draw souls to God by bitter zeal.." Pope St. Pius X, 1903

Though the Church has affirmed the legitimacy of the charismatic gifts, not all manifestations are authentic. While it is important to be open to the Spirit, it is also important to discern the true origin of these experiences. The Apostle John warns us, “do no believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 Jn 4:1). We must test these gifts to discern whether they are from the person, the devil, or God. The discernment of spirits is often listed as a charismatic gift because the Spirit helps us to recognize something as from God or from another source.

Discerning between authentic and inauthentic manifestations can be difficult, especially for someone not acquainted with the manifestations of charismatic gifts. Several keys can aid in the discernment of spirits. Matthew 12:33 tells us “a tree is known by its fruit.” Looking at the fruit of the message and at the fruit of the gift in the life of the person can be telling. The personal sanctity of the person is not an absolute measure. Just as God used Balaam to bless the Israelites and proclaim them as the Chosen People (Num. 22), sinners and unbelievers can receive charismatic gifts. On the other hand, a holy person may mistake his or her own zealousness and emotional responses for authentic gifts. However, those involved with authentic gifts should be drawn into the heart of the Church. Disunity or disobedience to the Church in the name of the Spirit is a contradiction; such a message is not authentic. The Holy Spirit does not lead people into sin, but rather to the Light.

The desire of the person seeking these gifts should also be consistent with the teachings of the Church. The gifts should not be sought so much as the Giver. Authentic gifts are not forms of divination or fortune-telling, and should not be sought as such.


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"It is utter folly to think that one can draw souls to God by bitter zeal.." Pope St. Pius X, 1903