Speaking In Tounges

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Scofizzle' date='Sep 2 2004, 06:49 PM']
In this quote it seems as though any of us who believe, these signs will come. Its almost as if we are expected to do these things. There is no mention here of this being restricted to just Israel. Even when Paul speaks directly of an unbelieving Israel I don't think it is limited to just that. [/quote]
That's how I've always taken it. Except that not all are expected to speak in tongues and such, as Paul says that it is a spiritual gift given to some (1 Cor 12:9-11). But yeah, I agree with you Scofizzle.

[Scofizzle]

well, not that we are all expected to speak in tongues, I should have worded it differently. But we are all called to expect that sort of thing to happen, it shouldn't be the shock that it is when we see it.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Scofizzle' date='Sep 2 2004, 03:53 PM'][b]This is Polar Bear's previous post....not mine.....but since he only linked to it I will post cuz its got good info. I like this little debate we're having very fun.[/b]

[. . .]
Both the Holy Father and Cardinal Ratzinger have made statements in favor of the current movement. It is inappropriate, then, for any of the faithful to maintain that the movement is outside of or contrary to the Church.
[. . . ]
[/quote]
A Catholic is free to hold his own opinion on the Charismatic movement, because the statements made by the Pope and Cardinal Ratzinger, which refer to the movement, are not binding in conscience nor are they [i]de fide[/i] definitions.

[Briguy]

17 And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Hi Scofizzle, Hope you are well this fine Friday. The problem with the verses here is that people want to pluck Tongues out and leave the other things. I don't see people speaking in tongues and then drinking a bottle of liquid plumber. And then top there evening off by stopping atr the ER and healing all the people. No, something else is going on here. Perhaps this is meant for a time that is yet to come or perhaps it was meant for the Apostles and some early followers as a way to give authority to the brand new message they were bringing. Either way, to use this verse as it relates to the year 2004 just does not work.

Also, To say there are two types of Tongues, one a prayer type and the other a gift, is not Biblical. We can disect 1 cor. 12-14 and see that Paul never gives any indication that there is two. One often mis-qouted verse is the one that says "one who speaks in tongues edifies himself" People will say that this proves that tongues can build up the speaker. The whole point is then missed. In 1 cor. 12:7 Paul says that all gifts are for the building up of the "body" not individuals. Therefore when Paul spoke about edifying oneself he was saying that in the negative. He was and is saying that is a WRONG use of the gift. It is for building up the body only. The verse is a rebuke along with most of Chapt. 14.

One other thing. Tongues has to be a real language because the greek word in question always refers to real languages. This means that tongues were used like this: a person of another language came into an assembly of believers. Someone who had the gift of tongues would share a short message with the person so they could get edified. Then a person with the gift of interpretation would interpret that message so the rest of the assembly would be edified. That way all involved were edified as required when a spirtual gift is used. Tongues are always in full control of the speaker, as gifts of preaching and teaching are today. I mean that if you really had the gift of tongues you could at any time have a conversation with a person who spoke a different language. Since no one today can do that, the gift is gone. Hows that for good old logic?

In Christ who saves,
Brian

Edited September 3, 2004 by Briguy

[MichaelFilo]

You would be suggesting the gift of tongues is actually a gift of learning a new language, this is not the case. I happen to agree with most of what else you said. However, speaking in tongues was and still could be used to talk to people of a different language (remember in the bible, how they went aren't these people Jews, but they speak a,b,c,d, e ). It could be used to preach to those who do not understand you, but I don't imagine you learn the language, because then it isn't the gift of speaking in tongues, but instead, the gift of learning a new tongue.

God bless,

Mikey

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Scofizzle' date='Sep 3 2004, 01:31 AM'] well, not that we are all expected to speak in tongues, I should have worded it differently. But we are all called to expect that sort of thing to happen, it shouldn't be the shock that it is when we see it. [/quote]
I figured that's what you were talking about.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Briguy' date='Sep 3 2004, 08:54 AM'] The problem with the verses here is that people want to pluck Tongues out and leave the other things. I don't see people speaking in tongues and then drinking a bottle of liquid plumber. And then top there evening off by stopping atr the ER and healing all the people. [/quote]
Question for clarification: are you saying that people aren't miraculously healed anymore or something else? I just want some clarification. Personally, I know of occasions where God has acted through another person to heal someone. In fact, it's my grandfather who was healed (he was techinically dead, but some faithful people came in and prayed over him, laying hands on him, and God answered). But I digress from the topic.

[Scofizzle]

[quote name='Briguy' date='Sep 3 2004, 07:54 AM'] Tongues are always in full control of the speaker, as gifts of preaching and teaching are today. I mean that if you really had the gift of tongues you could at any time have a conversation with a person who spoke a different language. Since no one today can do that, the gift is gone. Hows that for good old logic?

[/quote]
[QUOTE]

The speaker does not control the "tongues". The Holy Spirit determines what happens to whom and when.

Acts 2
And they were all (3) filled with the Holy Spirit and began to (4) speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
5 Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, (5) devout men from every nation under heaven.
6 And when (6) this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language.
7 (7) They were amazed and astonished, saying, "Why, are not all these who are speaking (8) Galileans?
8 "And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born?

The Apostels had no control of themselves speaking in tongues. It was the Holy Spirit moving within them.

You are correct when you say that tongues muct build up the community, but who are we to determine how and why thats happens. Also Tongues must be spoken in a language, True. But once again what languages are exceptable? What if someone speaks in som edialect from the center of africa that seems to be nothing more than mumbling? The point is..... We cannot determine these things. The Church has made her stance on the issue and thats all we can go on. Unfortunately and fortunately the Holy Spirit is a mystery to us. It CAN'T be explained. The fullness of the Truth will only be revieled to us in Heaven, and when we get there (hopefully) we can talk about it then.

[frozencell]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Sep 1 2004, 03:27 PM'] The Bible diminishes the importance of speaking in tongues compared to the other gifts of the Spirit (love, faith, hope). It also speaks of how you should be silent unless the people around you can actually understand what you're saying. See 1 Corinthians 14.

"Whoever speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but whoever prophesies builds up the church. Now I should like all of you to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. One who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be built up. Now, brothers, if I should come to you speaking in tongues, what good will I do you if I do not speak to you by way of revelation, or knowledge, or prophecy, or instruction? Likewise, if inanimate things that produce sound, such as flute or harp, do not give out the tones distinctly, how will what is being played on flute or harp be recognized? And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? [b]Similarly, if you, because of speaking in tongues, do not utter intelligible speech, how will anyone know what is being said? For you will be talking to the air.[/b]" [/quote]
I come from a long Protestant background, and I have had several experiences with "speaking in tongues". The general belief about these things (for those denoms. that believe in that sort of thing) was that you shouldn't speak in tongues unless there is a interpreter for everyone to hear. Definitely, someone speaking in Swahili in LA is going to be a lot of use for the congregation. You should only speak in tongues in front of people for them to listen to you if you are truly moved by the Holy Spirit to do such a thing. Then, God will provide an interpreter.

But I believe prayer is an entirely different matter. When you pray for someone you are not uttering the words for them to benifit by hearing them. You say the words as offering them to God. If the Holy Spirit comes on you in such a way as to cause you to speak in tongues then of course there isn't going to be an interpreter. There isn't any use for one. God knows every language and can understand anything you are saying, even if you do not. It's a gift of the Holy Spirit, and God will know if you are faking it. After all, it's a gift that is meant to bring you closer to God, not to be gawked at by others to make you look super-spiritual.

[Briguy]

You all seem to be close to what I see as the truth concerning tongues but yet missing a vital point or two. "Gifts" are just what the word says. Something given in full from the giver to the givee. If I gave you a car but not the keys it would be a useless gift. If I give you the car and the keys but told you that you can only drive the car when I say that would be a poor gift as well. No, a gift is given with the expectation that the receiver will use the gift at his will. Spiritual gifts are that same way! Imagine that a special gift given expressly from God to us and we have full control over what he has given us. Now He has expectations but that is another topic. Tongues were in full control of the user. If a person of another language came into a gathering a tongue speaker could just simply speak their language. No study, no training, no anything, it was simply a supernatural ability. The tongue speaker would preach a short message to the person and a gifted interpreter, who could interpret supernaturally would translate the message to the rest of the group, this would then edify ALL at the assembly which 1 Cor. 12:7 says must happen when a gift is exercised. As I said before ALL GIFTS are in our control, well I mean the gift/s we have are in our control. Helps, and governments(administrations) are no different. When the Holy Spirit gives us our gift/s we possess them and use them to further the kingdom by edifying the body. Hope that cleared up my position some. The day of Pentecost was the first giving of the gift of tongues and yes the Apostles were in control because they went out and preached to all the people of different languages that had gathered in that area. I'll try to add more later, thanks for reading.

In christ,
Brian

[Briguy]

Since no one responded to what I wrote I won't add anymore because it may be that no one is reading this. You know, no one responded to my last post on justification either, I sense a trend here.

Hope everyone is well!

In Christ,
Brian

[MC Just]

I dont beleive "speaking in tongues" is needed anymore. Some people just claim they speak in tongues because they want some sort of supernatural power. I say tongues is no longer needed, because it was for speaking to the masses in different languages. I think the church has already acomplished this pretty much allover the world. It's no longer needed, it was gift to spread the gospel in different languages, thats what I beleive.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Sep 9 2004, 11:30 AM'] I dont beleive "speaking in tongues" is needed anymore. Some people just claim they speak in tongues because they want some sort of supernatural power. I say tongues is no longer needed, because it was for speaking to the masses in different languages. I think the church has already acomplished this pretty much allover the world. It's no longer needed, it was gift to spread the gospel in different languages, thats what I beleive. [/quote]
I still believe (and the Church teaches) the Gift of Tongues still exists. The thing is, it isn't as [b]widespread[/b] as many claim it is. It's a [b]Charism[/b] for a reason!

[Briguy]

Shin........, Just to clarify. The gift of healing does not exist anymore. God still heals in response to prayer, at His will. Someone with the gift to heal would heal at his own will, not God's. Hope that clears up my position and sparks this dead debate to life as I feel i am mostly talking to myself the last couple days. Oh well at least I like my self (ha ha ha)

In Christ,
Brian

[cmotherofpirl]

The gift of healing does exist and it has always taken place as the result of prayers and the will of God.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Sep 10 2004, 09:20 AM'] The gift of healing does exist and it has always taken place  as the result of prayers and the will of God. [/quote]

I agree, the gift of healing still exists.

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote]The gift of healing does not exist anymore. God still heals in response to prayer, at His will. Someone with the gift to heal would heal at his own will, not God's.[/quote]

Briguy, it seems that you are missing a fundamental point of universal judeo-christian theology. When God gives charismatic gifts unto people, such as prophesy, healing, tongues, command over demons, etc, we do not do these things by some new power that is intrinsic to ourselves. All of these gifts come from God, and not just nominally, but truly. Thus, it is impossible for one to heal "at his own will, not God's" for God is the source of the power of healing and thus God must assent to its use. Thus, in any case of healing, prophesy, etc, the human will must be in communion with the Will of God(unless of course we include in our consideration demonic intervention).

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[White Knight]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Sep 10 2004, 05:37 PM']
I agree, the gift of healing still exists. [/quote]
Amen.

[musturde]

Padre Pio spoke to some American General in tongues. He was speaking Italian but the dude coulda sworn he was speaking perfect english.

[Aloysius]

dude, that's the kinda tongues i like...

for some reason i'm always really weary about the other kind where the person just starts randomly babbling :ph34r: