Attending Non-catholic Services

[Donna]

This is very disturbing, but I'll try to address one thing at a time.

Polar Bear, I commend your truly wanting to not alienate anyone.

Why, Shinobin, are you going to Mass and to a non-Mass? The Church is a perfect society within herself...one may find that citation in the [i]Directory[/i], and maybe [i]CCC[/i] writings which back it up. But I think you'd be hard pressed to find like things in any other catechism written before the 1990's.

I mean you no ill will.

It's one thing to attend the marriage/funeral of a non-Catholic.

But Hartford is right re: the examine of conscience, and Trent. I'm talking about participating in this way: an inner assention/agreement and praying [i]of [/i]the non-Catholic service. That is false worship.

Good Friday once had some extremely special and temporary circumstances as to why he attended non Cath. service for a time in addition to Mass. I converted after that [i]Directory[/i] came out, and tho the Lutheran community was my whole life, never did my parish priest say I could attend there. And no priest I've known since, ditto.

But also, when we attend a non-Catholic service to either participate inwardly, or actually take a leading part like reading...it's like being married, but going out "just for coffee" once a week w/ someone else. Does this weekly date in iteself mean one is an adulterer? It depends.

At the very least, one opens themself up to it becoming that way. And it begins in the heart...or by being indifferent to one's true spouse.

Our God is a jealous God.

Edited September 4, 2004 by Donna

[jasJis]

Donna has a very good point. Why are you going to other religious services? If you are going to be built up in faith, are you not participating enough in the Catholic Mass or seeking fully the Graces in the Eucharist? cappie (who is a priest) typed that he attended the Evensong in an Anglican Church. From my understanding it's a prayer service (not a mass) done in the evenings. It is supplemental to the Worship of the Mass, he is a priest, strong in his faith, going for additional prayer and not blurring it with the normal Sunday worship. The same goes for us. My daughter attends a non-denominational service on Sundays, but insists that her friends (who are non-denom) attend Sunday Mass with her. She's saying 'Yeah, this is good and I go to experience it, but Mass is More, come to this and experience it." You cannot risk equivocating a non-Catholic Sunday Worship as being as good as a Mass. [b]They do not have the Eucharist![/b]

Your motives have to be clear. If you are attending regularly, it has to be made clear that you do not put it at an equal level with a Mass. Your purpose has to be charity and encouragement to bring those people to a Mass. If not. You shouldn't be doing it. Going occaisionally, like to a wedding, is fine. You are acknowledging the Christian Truths they are witnessing too, but not equating it to be equal to a Mass.

[Archaeology cat]

I go to a Methodist church in addition to Mass for a couple of reasons. For one, it is important to my family that we all go to church together; since they are not becoming Catholic, I go with them. For another, it is a supplemental time of prayer and praise & teaching. I don't feel that I am in any way lowering the importance of Mass. Everyone at the Methodist church who knows me also knows where I stand on this, that I go to Mass first and then, if possible, I will also go to the Methodist services, but I won't skip Mass, where I would skip the Methodist service if I had to do so. And yes, our God is a jealous God. But in all that I do, I worship Him, and I will continue to do so.

[jasJis]

Of course you must honor your Father and Mother who have taught you Christiantity by example. If you are graced to grow beyond what they have given, you also must not ignore the foundations they established with God's help. In God's good time, maybe after you've matured, started a family, your parents will see you more as a peer and you will serve God to lead them to the fullness of Grace in Catholicism.

[Archaeology cat]

My parents do see me as a peer, even as being more mature in my faith than they are. But that's not the point right now. I've decided to take a break from phatmass, becuase I get caught up in debating and I've found that that does endanger my faith. Sometimes it even makes me question if I should continue in my conversion (of course I will continue, because it's God's will).

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='shinobininjasp' date='Sep 4 2004, 07:53 AM'] My parents do see me as a peer, even as being more mature in my faith than they are. But that's not the point right now. I've decided to take a break from phatmass, becuase I get caught up in debating and I've found that that does endanger my faith. Sometimes it even makes me question if I should continue in my conversion (of course I will continue, because it's God's will). [/quote]
That sounds like a wise decision, because apologetics can degenerate into a form of rationalism if one is not careful.

[Soldier4Him]

[quote], I think it's only once every 4 months (sad, I know), so there's really not much of a danger in me taking it there, I guess [/quote]

no danger of you taking communion there? is that what you're saying? i hope that's not what you're saying. The Eucharist is the true body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ. NO OTHER church on earth has that. They're not recieving the same thing. They're receiving bread. Nothing more. There is a definate danger of you recieving communion there, it is a sin. Clear this up for us, you're not receiving there are you?

[Donna]

Shinobin, thank you for your reply (tho you may not see this post). Sounds like it is slightly similiar to Good Friday's temporary situation.

Don't know if you're still living at home. I was married (w/ children) when I converted...having read Luther's own quotes, and other studies on the Protestant Revolt (I am talking about Henry VIII, Luther, et al who really [i]did [/i]revolt), gave me a heightened awareness of what the stakes are in not losing what I'd found; my own vulnerability on several levels (like inbred anti-Catholicism which is still present); and a true danger of - through attending non-Cath. religious [i]anything[/i] - putting all religions on more or less an equal par. If I'd a horror of being willfully anti-God as I once was, I was now more afraid of being lukewarm and vomitted out of the mouth of Jesus. 'Cause I know I'm [i]not [/i]beyond the reach of this.

I always prayed to know the truth... and many in my life were not happy w/ what I found. Whoever we may be, convert or not, the Catholic road will at some point exact heavy sacrifice.

Anyway, those (like Paladin) still at home and converts, I can only applaud and thank Our Lord for the grace of drawing them in. It's got to be awkward (at the least) at times.

I also understand your point about debating and seeking a break from it.

No one can gainsay your priest, but there must be a good reason the Church spoke against these things for a long time, and that wisdom stands on its own. I hope you find out more of why she has done so; it can only help you and those you love.

For anyone in this situation, I would be quite concerned for them. Even if it was solely a temporary special circumstance.

Edited September 5, 2004 by Donna

[HartfordWhalers]

[quote name='Dave' date='Sep 2 2004, 02:48 PM'] 2. Going to a Protestant service would be a danger to your faith, and you knew that but went anyway. [/quote]
That's the entire point of what so many Popes have said throughout history. It DOES endanger your faith, whether you think so or not.

Moreover, the Catechism of the Council of Trent says ONLY CATHOLIC WORSHIP IS PLEASING TO GOD. Does that need to be repeated? It is a BLASPHEMY to use the Lord's Name in vain. If these "prayers" are not pleasing to God, then it is in vain, hence BLASPHEMY. And even if you don't wnt to call it what it is: balsphemy, what is the purpose of going to these services? There is none except to foster indifference. Are we prepared to throw out the entire [b]T[/b]radition of the Church that non-Catholic worship does not please Him and is in vain and is blasphemopus based upon what the Pope wrote about ecuminsm, which is fallible?

Blessed Pope Pius IX, Syllabus of Errors:

"18. That Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church is hereby condemned as error."

"A Catholic sins against Faith by taking part in non-Catholic worship, because he thus professes belief in a religion he knows to be false." Bishop Louis LaRavoire Morrow

"[u][b]It is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics[/b][/u]. There is only [b]one[/b] way in which the unity of Christians may be fostered, [i]and that is by furthering their return to the one true Church of Christ for those who are separated from Her[/i]." Pope Pius XI, (the Encyclical) Mortalium Animos

Are we going to throw out what Pope Pius XI said? Are we now FOR THE FIRST TIME (as he said, the Apostolic See has NEVER allowed it) to say that going to a protestant service is OK? If the Pope is infallible as often as he is claimed to be (in just abotu everything he says), then we MUST follow what Pius XI here is telling us! There is only ONE way to unity--the Church.

[HartfordWhalers]

"since they are not becoming Catholic, I go with them."

That was the only purpose I thought people said they used in order to go to non-Catholic services: to convert them... if that is not an option, it is out of the question, which it already is anyway...

"For another, it is a supplemental time of prayer and praise & teaching."

As I quoted the Catechism of Trent so may times now: non-Catholic worship is NOT pleasing to God, period. It is false worship. The teaching you get is known as heresy. Heresy is a teaching that is not in line with the Church. That is NOT a good reasonm to go; in fact, that is the very reason why you ought not go.

"I don't feel that I am in any way lowering the importance of Mass."

Just because you don't feel like it doesn't mean you aren't doing it.

"And yes, our God is a jealous God. But in all that I do, I worship Him, and I will continue to do so."

Non-Catholic worship (at a protestant service), as I quoted the Catechism above, is not pleasing to God.

Edited September 5, 2004 by HartfordWhalers

[mulls]

funny

[cmotherofpirl]

"18. That Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church is hereby condemned as error."

Nobody here disagrees with this.

Attending a non catholic service is not the same as worshipping at a non-catholic service. I have attended many protestant services as a Girl Scout leader. In no sense was I worshipping.

[PedroX]

The Holy Father, in his encyclical for Easter 2003, strongly urged us to avoid any service where Protestant communion would be present. Our presence there gives the appearance of unity, where none is to be found.

This was followed recently in St. Peter's itself when the Ecumenical Patriarch, Bartholomew of Constantinople, visited the Holy Father. (aren't titles fun?) The celebrated a liturgy of the word together, and the the Patriarch left the platform while the Pope celebrated the Liturgy of the Eucharist. No appearance of unity where there is none.

peace...

[HartfordWhalers]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Sep 5 2004, 08:31 AM'] "18. That Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church is hereby condemned as error."

Nobody here disagrees with this.

Attending a non catholic service is not the same as worshipping at a non-catholic service. I have attended many protestant services as a Girl Scout leader. In no sense was I worshipping. [/quote]
OK, regardless if you are worshippibng or not (which he said he was, and was what I was addressing with the quotes about non-Catholic worship), then consider this:

"It is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics. There is only one way in which the unity of Christians may be fostered, and that is by furthering their return to the one true Church of Christ for those who are separated from Her." Pope Pius XI, (the Encyclical) Mortalium Animos

Are we going to throw out what Pope Pius XI said? Are we now FOR THE FIRST TIME (as he said, the Apostolic See has NEVER allowed it) to say that going to a protestant service is OK? If the Pope is infallible as often as he is claimed to be (in just abotu everything he says), then we MUST follow what Pius XI here is telling us! There is only ONE way to unity--the Church.

[Brother Adam]

Something smells funny here.

First I have to disagree with the context previous letters are being used, second, a pope can make mistakes in teaching outside of his official capacity. Opinion is just that, opinion.

If this view were to prevail I can only see it further damaging the body of Christ.



But like I said....something here smells fishy.

[HartfordWhalers]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Sep 6 2004, 11:42 AM'] Something smells funny here.

First I have to disagree with the context previous letters are being used, second, a pope can make mistakes in teaching outside of his official capacity. Opinion is just that, opinion.

If this view were to prevail I can only see it further damaging the body of Christ.



But like I said....something here smells fishy. [/quote]
Are you saying every Pope was teaching wrong or that John Paul II is wrong. Pius XI says all Popes condemned this (which they did--just read what they wrote!). It is only logical that the current Pope is teaching incorrectly.

And what is so fishy? I quoted that directly from the Vatican's encyclical online.

Edited September 6, 2004 by HartfordWhalers

[jasJis]

[quote name='HartfordWhalers' date='Sep 6 2004, 12:28 PM'] Are you saying every Pope was teaching wrong or that John Paul II is wrong. Pius XI says all Popes condemned this (which they did--just read what they wrote!). It is only logical that the current Pope is teaching incorrectly.

And what is so fishy? I quoted that directly from the Vatican's encyclical online. [/quote]
It's fishy because you choose to take it out of context. Is the current Pope the only one to encourage ecumenism? Or are you answering the wrong question with Pious IX's statement? Is Vatican II the first ecumenical council? Hartford, don't abandon the Fullness of the Truth.

[HartfordWhalers]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Sep 6 2004, 08:09 PM'] It's fishy because you choose to take it out of context. Is the current Pope the only one to encourage ecumenism? Or are you answering the wrong question with Pious IX's statement? Is Vatican II the first ecumenical council? Hartford, don't abandon the Fullness of the Truth. [/quote]
Ecumenism in the view that most Catholics have today is not what ecumenical means, such as an ecumenical council like Nicea. The idea that ecumenism includes attending a non-Catholic service was condemned by all Popes. I am not taking anything out of context! Read what the Fathers of the Church and the Popes before John Paul II have said about it. Then read where he says you can read at a non-Catholic service. I'd say it's a contradiction. I don't see how you could not assert the same...

[p0lar_bear]

So...the current Magisterium is encouraging people in committing mortal sin?


OK, the gates of hell have prevailed, it's over...

[bookofjohn]

[quote name='HartfordWhalers' date='Sep 7 2004, 01:10 AM'] OK, regardless if you are worshippibng or not (which he said he was, and was what I was addressing with the quotes about non-Catholic worship), then consider this:

"It is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics. There is only one way in which the unity of Christians may be fostered, and that is by furthering their return to the one true Church of Christ for those who are separated from Her." Pope Pius XI, (the Encyclical) Mortalium Animos

Are we going to throw out what Pope Pius XI said? Are we now FOR THE FIRST TIME (as he said, the Apostolic See has NEVER allowed it) to say that going to a protestant service is OK? If the Pope is infallible as often as he is claimed to be (in just abotu everything he says), then we MUST follow what Pius XI here is telling us! There is only ONE way to unity--the Church. [/quote]
WoohOo! A CATHOLIC FUNDAMENTALIST!

sorry, i just find Hartford's post amusing. hehe.

Edited September 7, 2004 by bookofjohn