To Kneel Or Not To Kneel?

[ironman]

What's everyone thoughts on kneeling during the concecration at Mass. I pretty much always kneel, I stand by what Cardinal Ratzinger said in an article regarding liturgical abuse. He said, "If you believe, kneel." I don't know how or why, we are getting more and more away from reverance at Mass. If you have some thoughts on this, let me know.......

[Fiat_Voluntas_Tua]

The Abbey up in my college is Benedictine. It is there posture of reverance to stand during the Consecretion. I have to go to class...but when i get back, if no one posted stuff about this, I will look some stuff up...I am pretty sure it is up to the Diocease to decide the posture of reverance, so that everyone at Mass does the same thing in Unity, because we are all one body in Christ.

-UIOGD-

Andy

[picchick]

I think that people want comfort over anything else. I can understand if you have some physical aligment keeping you from kneeling such as surgery, knee problems, etc. Also, if you have some other thing that it is hard to kneel such as pregnancy, your holding a baby and you can't get down and up easily, and other examples, I don't think that it is wrong not to kneel. I try to always kneel. Sometimes there are no kneelers in a Church. I don't think that is an excuse. If Jesus had to fall down on His bloody scourged knees with a heavy cross laid across His shoulders, people who are able can fall down on their knees without the cushy soft kneelers. To kneel on stone floors or even grass is not a big deal if you are young and able to do so

Edited September 6, 2004 by picchick

[Colleen]

[quote name='picchick' date='Sep 6 2004, 10:20 AM'] I think that people want comfort over anything else. I can understand if you have some physical aligment keeping you from kneeling such as surgery, knee problems, etc. Also, if you have some other thing that it is hard to kneel such as pregnancy, your holding a baby and you can't get down and up easily, and other examples, I don't think that it is wrong not to kneel. I try to always kneel. Sometimes there are no kneelers in a Church. I don't think that is an excuse. If Jesus had to fall down on His bloody scourged knees with a heavy cross laid across His shoulders, people who are able can fall down on their knees without the cushy soft kneelers. To kneel on stone floors or even grass is not a big deal if you are young and able to do so [/quote]
I agree completely. It's a good mortification to kneel when there aren't any kneelers. Also, I think if you find yourself in a church that's packed and there isn't anywhere to sit (so you have to stand during Mass), that's no excuse not to kneel during the consecration.

[little_angel202]

yup i agree with the above this is the Creator of the whole universe coming down to earth souldent we show just a little reverance?

[Paladin D]

I would love to kneel but considering I altar serve almost every week, I would only be a distraction from the Eucharist (everyone else stands).

[phatcatholic]

what frustrates me is that, if you stand, you are supposed to bow whenever the transubstantiation occurs for the bread and for the wine, but people usually just stand there. this basically means that they are showing know act of reverence for the miracle that is taking place

grrrrr.........

[StColette]

I will continue to kneel !!

[ironman]

The more you lose reverance, the more you lose the Church. I was watching EWTN, and they had the Pope at Mass, some other priest was saying the Mass, and during the consecration, the Pope was kneeling. That was my last straw to my conclusion. Which is, if the Pope is kneeling, I think I'll kneel, maybe he knows a little more than me......

[Cam42]

On November 14, 2001, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops proposed some adaptations to the 2000 edition of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal for the dioceses of the United States.

Regarding kneeling, the adaptations state the following: “In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise (GIRM, no. 43). So, we see that kneeling after the Agnus Dei is now a liturgical norm in the dioceses of the United States.


GIRM no. 43 [i]The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, Orate, fraters (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.

They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.

[b]In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.[/b]

With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.[/i] (Emphasis added)

The last sentence of the bolded text does not speak to the kneeling at the Sanctus, but rather the requirement to kneel AFTER the Angus Dei. We are required by "particular" Liturgical Law to kneel. This cannot be denied and it is to be enforced.

It would seem that this is fairly clear, no? We are obliged to follow the GIRM, just as the deacons, priests, and bishops are obliged to instruct and provide the Liturgy put forth by this instruction.

Cam42

[phatcatholic]

for those who don't know, you may want to explain what the "Angus", the "Eucharistic Prayer", and the "Sanctus" are.

[Cam42]

The Sanctus is the Holy, Holy, Holy....it is the prayer of the angels. It is a kind of call to worship of the Consecration of the host and wine into the Real Presence of Jesus. The connection in which it occurs in the liturgy is this: in all rites the Eucharistic prayer (Canon Anaphora) begins with a formal thanksgiving to God for his benefits, generally enumerated at length.

The prayer in English: [b]Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of power and might, Heaven and earth are full of your glory. Hosanna in the highest. Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest.[/b]

The prayer in Latin: [b]Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus Dominus Deus Sabaoth. Pleni sunt caeli et terra gloria tua. Hosanna in excelsis. Benedictus qui venit in nomine Domini. Hosanna in excelsis.[/b]



The Eucharistic Prayer is the prayer of Consecration.

The Agnus Dei is the Lamb of God.....it is another prayer of the angels. It is a lauding of the newly consecrated Eucharist.

The prayer in English: [b]Lamb of God, that takes away the sins of the world, Have mercy on us. Lamb of God, that takes away the sins of the world, Have mercy on us. Lamb of God, that takes away the sins of the world, Grant us peace.[/b]

The prayer in Latin: [B] Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi: Miserere nobis. Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi: Miserere nobis. Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi: Dona nobis pacem.

When you see the Latin, you see the names of the prayers. It is tradition of the Church to name things after the first two principle words of a prayer or document, in Latin.

Cam42

[phatcatholic]

awesome, thanks bro

[HartfordWhalers]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Sep 6 2004, 03:04 PM'] I would love to kneel but considering I altar serve almost every week, I would only be a distraction from the Eucharist (everyone else stands). [/quote]
Distraction is not a good reason not to stand up for what is right or set a good example. Maybe it's good for you to distract someone for a moment, and then that person will think "maybe I should kneel, too."

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Sep 7 2004, 09:25 AM'] Regarding kneeling, the adaptations state the following: “In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise (GIRM, no. 43). So, we see that kneeling after the Agnus Dei is now a liturgical norm in the dioceses of the United States. [/quote]
Cam42, would this then mean that most congregations are in error by standing instead of kneeling? it would seem that they are, since they stand not b/c of some health reason but b/c it is the easier thing to do or b/c it has somehow become the norm of that church.

[Cam42]

[quote]Cam42, would this then mean that most congregations are in error by standing instead of kneeling?[/quote]

Yes....that is the short answer. The longer answer is much more in depth.

One cannot act totally out of line with the parish simply because he feels like it. So, for the sake of argument, I attend Mass at your parish. It is the "custom" of your parish to stand for the Canon. The parish is in error. That is clear. However, to draw attention to myself by kneeling could cause scandal or it could cause doubt in the mind of the faithful. That must be avoided.

What I would be obliged to do is conform to the parish, but approach Father after Mass, in private and ask him why he does not follow the GIRM. (BTW, there is no answer he can give that is right, except to say that he will conform) If he is obstinant then I would be obliged to contact the local ordinary (bishop) and inform him that one of his parishes is not in conformity with the GIRM and the Church.

(A disclaimer: This is to be done in the private forum, by correspondance or in person. It is never to be done in any type of public forum, as we are not to show outward disobedience toward the local ordinary. A question of this nature could be construed as such or lead him to teach in error.....which he should not do. This part of the thread however, is best served in another forum, as it could lead to debate.)

Cam42

[phatcatholic]

thanks Cam

[toledo_jesus]

isn't kneeling a universal norm? wouldn't that supercede the customs of the US?

[Ellenita]

We kneel in the UK.....or at least in every Mass I've been to in the UK! They kneel in Portugal too.

[Cam42]

Kneeling for the consecration is the universal norm. However, kneeling for the Entire Eucharistic Prayer is particular to certain places in the world. The United States is one of these places.

Cam42