skuba steve Posted September 24, 2003 Posted September 24, 2003 Also in proverbs it says... "trust in the Lord with all your heart lean not on your own understanding." God is much more smarter than us.
Dave Posted September 24, 2003 Posted September 24, 2003 Also in proverbs it says... "trust in the Lord with all your heart lean not on your own understanding." God is much more smarter than us. Are you saying it's wrong for Catholics to listen to the Church's teachings? When the Church teaches us, it's God teaching us. There's no conflict between the teaching of God and the teachings of the Church. And as for leaning not on your own understanding, isn't this what happens when people come to all these different biblical conclusions? God doesn't guide people to different conclusions.
Trooper4DaHolyG Posted September 25, 2003 Author Posted September 25, 2003 (edited) I also do agree with you Dave that God is not the author of Confusion, there is scripture to back that up. But who is being confused? I don't think any of us! We can't keep on having sissy debates, how do you know you are right? well how do you know you are right, its making me sick because its going around in circles! I accept the fact all Christians are different, it makes us a unique and weird bunch. If the Holy G spoke to me in the same way he spoke to you I would be shattered, I don't feel we're @ the same level (not inferring who is better or higher, just @ different levels). The Bible to me is more than just litterature and fact, I hate fact because it is substantitaed by the world as true. I as a Christian want to be different in what I believe in, I want the only think that I fully believe in is my faith in Christ Jesus and the Bible as my source and tool of new refresing power. For I believe if the bible is read with fully understanding and importanty of the Holy Spirit it is a tool for Divine Healing, Freedom and Power. Edited September 25, 2003 by Trooper4DaHolyG
Dave Posted September 25, 2003 Posted September 25, 2003 I also do agree with you Dave that God is not the author of Confusion, there is scripture to back that up. But who is being confused? I don't think any of us! We can't keep on having sissy debates, how do you know you are right? well how do you know you are right, its making me sick because its going around in circles! I accept the fact all Christians are different, it makes us a unique and weird bunch. If the Holy G spoke to me in the same way he spoke to you I would be shattered, I don't feel we're @ the same level (not inferring who is better or higher, just @ different levels). The Bible to me is more than just litterature and fact, I hate fact because it is substantitaed by the world as true. I as a Christian want to be different in what I believe in, I would not be the only think that I fully believe in his my faith in Christ Jesus and the Bible as my source and tool of new refresing power. For I believe if the bible is read with fully understanding and importanty of the Holy Spirit it is a tool for Divine Healing, Freedom and Power. How do I know I'm right? It's not about me being right; it's about the Catholic Church being right. Jesus guaranteed that would be the case. Yes, Christians are different in that they believe different things, but is that really what Jesus wanted? Not at all! I never said the Bible was JUST literature and fact, and no one else has said that either. We believe it's part of the inspired, infallible Word of God. However, as I and others have said before, lots of people come to different conclusions about the Bible and yet say the Holy Spirit led them to it. Well, you say a particular passage in the Bible means one thing; we say said passage means something else. Who's right? Someone has to be wrong; we can't both be right. So isn't there a real possibility you could be wrong?
Trooper4DaHolyG Posted September 25, 2003 Author Posted September 25, 2003 (edited) there is 100% no chance we are wrong in these intepretations ,because as much as much as you hate this phrase (oh the vanity) "The Holy Spirit leads us" as what i said he is not just going to tell us different things, its not just what we believe, but also what we do and how we handle things and what convictional sins we have. The Holy G is relevant to our lives. How do you know Jesus didn't want us to be different? We are unified by him, but different in this world. Do you not agree? < in light of all this, I am not saying you are wrong > Edited September 25, 2003 by Trooper4DaHolyG
Paladin D Posted September 25, 2003 Posted September 25, 2003 However, how can we all come together and worship God? If we all believe in differently?
Dave Posted September 25, 2003 Posted September 25, 2003 there is 100% no chance we are wrong in these intepretations ,because as much as much as you hate this phrase (oh the vanity) "The Holy Spirit leads us" as what i said he is not just going to tell us different things, its not just what we believe, but also what we do and how we handle things and what convictional sins we have. The Holy G is relevant to our lives. How do you know Jesus didn't want us to be different? We are unified by him, but different in this world. Do you not agree? < in light of all this, I am not saying you are wrong > I really don't understand what you're trying to say in the first part of your post. It's late here, and my brain isn't working as quickly as it is during the day. As for Jesus supposedly wanting us to be different, St. Paul said there's one Lord, ONE FAITH, and one baptism. At the time there wasn't a collection of competing Christian faiths that believe different things, nor did Jesus ever intend that to be the case. The Bible doesn't even say that Jesus intended that there be different groups of Christians believing different things. Jesus created a VISIBLE Church, not an invisible Church of different denominations. So there's really no unity among non-Catholic Christians. However, because of their baptism and faith in Christ, they are, in a way, part of the Catholic Church, albeit imperfectly, because they don't accept the pope or many of the Church's teachings.
Jake Huether Posted September 25, 2003 Posted September 25, 2003 there is 100% no chance we are wrong in these intepretations ,because as much as much as you hate this phrase (oh the vanity) "The Holy Spirit leads us" as what i said he is not just going to tell us different things, its not just what we believe, but also what we do and how we handle things and what convictional sins we have. The Holy G is relevant to our lives. How do you know Jesus didn't want us to be different? We are unified by him, but different in this world. Do you not agree? < in light of all this, I am not saying you are wrong > Ah - So... What does Peter mean when he talks about personal interpritation? Or is that a thing of the past? And are you gunna tell the "gay" Christians that they aren't lead by the "spirit", when they interpit Scripture to be "okay" with sodomy?
Trooper4DaHolyG Posted September 25, 2003 Author Posted September 25, 2003 see Jake you are taking a judging role, this is something we as Christians should not be doing.... this is not Personal Interpretation, it is rather quite different....
Dave Posted September 25, 2003 Posted September 25, 2003 see Jake you are taking a judging role, this is something we as Christians should not be doing.... this is not Personal Interpretation, it is rather quite different.... Nothing judgmental about what he said. It's just the truth.
Trooper4DaHolyG Posted September 25, 2003 Author Posted September 25, 2003 And are you gunna tell the "gay" Christians that they aren't lead by the "spirit", when they interpit Scripture to be "okay" with sodomy? thats what I mean Dave.... were do we have right to tell the people this?
Dave Posted September 25, 2003 Posted September 25, 2003 thats what I mean Dave.... were do we have right to tell the people this? Homosexual activity is highly sinful. So if any Christians claim that it's OK, then the Spirit couldn't possibly have led them to that conclusion. God doesn't lead people to sin.
Trooper4DaHolyG Posted September 25, 2003 Author Posted September 25, 2003 would u tell a gay person that? straigh out... never met one?
Jake Huether Posted September 25, 2003 Posted September 25, 2003 see Jake you are taking a judging role, this is something we as Christians should not be doing.... this is not Personal Interpretation, it is rather quite different.... I'm biting my tongue HARD right now... Please, before I blow up (literally)... I've asked this several times, and all I've got is non-answers! Tell us what you think "personal itnerpritation" means, as apposed to being "personally inspired" (led by the Spirit)? And if you do that - take it a step further and explain how we are supposed to know when we are "personally inspired", or if we've just come up with a personal interpritation? And no, you can't say "oh, you'll just know". There MUST be objective evidence! Because as far as we know, a person supporting sodomy (or sex outside of marriage for that matter) will say that they also "just know". I know the Spirit is leading me when I understand John 6 literally. Well, you feel that the Spirit is leading you when you think it is a symbol. Who's the Spirit leading!? This isn't a matter of different "styles" of worship. If I'm worsiping a peice of bread, I'm in grave error! It better be real! Tell me... How is it that the Spirit has led us both two two VERY different interpritations! Truth is, He hasn't. Only ONE of us has the right one. And since we both "feel" that the Spirit is leading us, then there HAS to be objective evidence! Christ wouldn't leave us in confusing about the Truth! The objective evidence is the Church!
[jas] Posted September 25, 2003 Posted September 25, 2003 Well I'd personally say that it's objectively true that if you took said piece of bread to a laboratory somewhere to have it anylysed, it would show that it's a piece of bread, not a part of someone's body...
Trooper4DaHolyG Posted September 25, 2003 Author Posted September 25, 2003 The only evidence I have to give to you that would even come close to satisying your needs is me. If you saw me you may be able to say (I hope) the Spirit is working through him. The only ones who can learn from Personal Interpretation compared to Inspiration is the person themselves and they will learn it the hard way. The Holy Spirit has never failed for me, whenever I have felt that i was interpreting wrong I have know it from the inside consulted a pastor and fasted in prayer. The Holy Spirit is meant to be our guide, personally... he is also a very hazy area. I think this is why many find it hard 2 explain him on a personal level for the 2nd person. It is an experience thing... The Holy Spirit being real to me and building my faith is my only evidence... an example: If you let a drop of water into a barrel filled with ashes, and look for its footprint, you will not see any. The water drop immediately sinks to the bottom. On the top you will see only dry ashes again. But if you keep pouring water into it, eventually it will wet the entire ash and the wetness will show up on the surface. Then you can say that the barrel is filled with water. Similarly, when the water of Holy Spirit is kept pouring on into the life of a new believer, it eventually will ‘wet’ that person’s entire personality and the ‘wetness’ shows up on the surface, so to speak, to eventually lead to a personal and greater understanding of the Power in God's Word.
Dave Posted September 25, 2003 Posted September 25, 2003 would u tell a gay person that? straigh out... never met one? If I met a gay person who truly believed that, of course I would! Sin is sin, and it's not a very loving thing not to warn someone that something they're doing could lead them to hell. God never told us to smile and look the other way if we see someone sinning or condoning sin.
Dave Posted September 25, 2003 Posted September 25, 2003 ,Sep 25 2003, 09:01 AM] Well I'd personally say that it's objectively true that if you took said piece of bread to a laboratory somewhere to have it anylysed, it would show that it's a piece of bread, not a part of someone's body... True, if you took it to a laboratory, you wouldn't find it to be any different from regular bread. However, when the bread and wine is consecrated, the form remains the same (how it looks, how it tastes, how it smells, etc.), but the substance (what we can't see) changes.
Trooper4DaHolyG Posted September 25, 2003 Author Posted September 25, 2003 ok don't like your approach but hey... what can i say?
Trooper4DaHolyG Posted September 25, 2003 Author Posted September 25, 2003 I know the Spirit is leading me when I understand John 6 literally. Well, you feel that the Spirit is leading you when you think it is a symbol. Who's the Spirit leading!? This isn't a matter of different "styles" of worship. If I'm worsiping a peice of bread, I'm in grave error! It better be real! Tell me... How is it that the Spirit has led us both two two VERY different interpritations! Truth is, He hasn't. Only ONE of us has the right one. And since we both "feel" that the Spirit is leading us, then there HAS to be objective evidence! Christ wouldn't leave us in confusing about the Truth! The objective evidence is the Church! Just as the Holy Spirit did not ask permission of the Roman guards at the sepulchure of Jesus, before He entered in and resurrected Jesus, the Holy Spirit still does not ask permission from any theologians before He manifests in a certain way. "The wind blows where it pleases."
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