What Is This Catholic Church?

[Jake Huether]

,Sep 25 2003, 08:34 AM] And what makes your church right and everyone else wrong?

Before you give me the usual "on this rock I will build my church" etc scriptures, what makes your interpretation of those right?

The Catholic Church's interpritation is right because we are the Church that Christ established, we were promised the Holy Spirit...

Okay - I won't use Scripture to back the Church up.

Look at history. We are the ONLY Church that existed prior to 1517. Would Christ let 1500 years go by before he re-established the "true" Protestant Church? If the Catholic Church is in error now, then it must have been in error before. If it was in error before then it was leading in error for nearly 2 centuries before it was "reformed". If that was the case, then Christ was a liar, because the gates of hell would have prevailed.

Or do you believe that all churches are okay? Protestants just worship differently? If that's the case, then what was the point of the reformation? "Reformation" means something different than "worshiping differently". If the reformation was to bring the Church back on track (presumably because it was teaching in error - not just worshiping differently), then the reformation failed because now there are many more churches "off track".

That's a whole nother ball of wax.

[[jas]]

..

Edited September 25, 2003 by [jas]

[Dave]

and yes I was once Catholic...

Why did you leave the Church?

[Paladin D]

nothing! nothing in the bible clearly substantiated to me that the Catholic Church is what Jesus left, that Mary and the saints should be prayed through and that there were popes in the bible....

Nor does the Bible include shoutin in the place of worship, dancing and running around the pews, or making big bucks from a ministry. Nor does it have the words "Pre-tribulation" or "Rapture".

[Jake Huether]

i am going 2 be praying with you Jake coz you and me know they are wrong...

it sux when they come up with unclear scripture....

coz that was one of things i couldn't take when i first got here....

nothing! nothing in the bible clearly substantiated to me that the Catholic Church is what Jesus left, that Mary and the saints should be prayed through and that there were popes in the bible....

Does the Bible clearly substantiate to you that the church you are in is what Jesus left?

Scripture won't tell you about praying through Mary and the Saints, because up until then (the last writings) Christianity was too young! There were basically no Christian Saints (remember Saints are those in heaven, saints with a lower case s is everyone)! Before Christ the gates of heaven were closed. We couldn't request prayers from the dead because they weren't in heaven! We could pray FOR them, and we did (Jewish Tradition - Scriptural).

The Bible clearly indicates that the Church could bind and loose, and whatever it did on earth was done in heaven. Therefore, if the Church bound that intercession of the Saints (those who were in heave) was okay on earth, than it was okay in heaven too! A quick glance at the early Church (first few centuries) will prove that they were asking the Saints for prayers.

[[jas]]

The Catholic Church's interpritation is right because we are the Church that Christ established, we were promised the Holy Spirit...

Okay - I won't use Scripture to back the Church up.

Look at history. We are the ONLY Church that existed prior to 1517. Would Christ let 1500 years go by before he re-established the "true" Protestant Church? If the Catholic Church is in error now, then it must have been in error before. If it was in error before then it was leading in error for nearly 2 centuries before it was "reformed". If that was the case, then Christ was a liar, because the gates of hell would have prevailed.

Or do you believe that all churches are okay? Protestants just worship differently? If that's the case, then what was the point of the reformation? "Reformation" means something different than "worshiping differently". If the reformation was to bring the Church back on track (presumably because it was teaching in error - not just worshiping differently), then the reformation failed because now there are many more churches "off track".

That's a whole nother ball of wax.

As I recall from some history (I may be wrong) the church was split into east and west in about 1000AD (only one church?) and then again when the reformation happened.

Also ignoring that, weren't there people who believed things different to the official church line before then? Weren't they just written off as heretics, just like Luther was?

Maybe Luther was just the first one bold enough to stand up to the church?

And isn't it just possible that over 1500 years, the cumulative effect of even slight changes to theology by various church councils meant that the church had moved far enough away from its original beliefs?

All that aside, why does being around the longest automatically make you right? If that's the case why don't we all go and become Jewish? They were around much longer before the "reformation" in 33ad led by a guy called Jesus...

[Paladin D]

The first group to split from the Catholic Church, was the Orthodox Church in 1054AD.

However, much of there doctrine and teachings are very similar to Catholic doctrine. Their Eucharist is the same as ours (correct me if I'm wrong).

[Paladin D]

,Sep 25 2003, 08:34 AM]Also ignoring that, weren't there people who believed things different to the official church line before then? Weren't they just written off as heretics, just like Luther was?

Maybe Luther was just the first one bold enough to stand up to the church?

If you're going use that case, would homosexual Christians be in right standing if they started a Reformation?

Edited September 25, 2003 by Paladin D

[cmotherofpirl]

TRooper Jesus only left one Church, not each man to his own Church.

You just agreed that you " don't believe in the Holy Spirit leading us to completely different conclusions that is wrong."

But the mormons think that the Holy Spirit is leading them, the unitarians believe the Holy Spirit is leading them as well.

THis is what happens with private interpretation.

You don't have any authority to say they are wrong, and they can't say you are wrong. You are a bunch of privates running your own armies.

You have nowhere to appeal because you have rejected the concept of absolute authority residing in a church.

You have no general, only a book.

Jesus left someone in charge,because somebody HAS to be the boss. Every family has a boss and thats the dad. Well the Church is exactly the same. Some has to lead, or you have a bunch of privates running around like chuckens with their head cut off.

Look at the state of the Churches today, look in the phone book. Do you really think this is what Jesus wanted for his sheep. Do you really think he would leaver us without a shepard?

think about it

Edited September 25, 2003 by cmotherofpirl

[[jas]]

,Sep 25 2003, 11:57 PM] All that aside, why does being around the longest automatically make you right? If that's the case why don't we all go and become Jewish? They were around much longer before the "reformation" in 33ad led by a guy called Jesus...

bump

[Jake Huether]

As I recall from some history (I may be wrong) the church was split into east and west in about 1000AD (only one church?) and then again when the reformation happened.

One Church = One teaching. That split was reconciled, now there is the easter rite (as apposed to the roman rite). They are still Catholic, and teach exactly what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. They have different "discepline".

Those that remained split are the Easter Orthodox, and they reject the Pope.

Also ignoring that, weren't there people who believed things different to the official church line before then? Weren't they just written off as heretics, just like Luther was?

Maybe Luther was just the first one bold enough to stand up to the church?

No, he wasn't the only one bold enough to stand up to the Church. St. Francis did that 300 years earlier. Only difference was, St. Francis did it from WITHIN. Luther was the only one foolish enough to try to do it from OUTSIDE. And he was sorry for it because at the end of his life more than 100 "churches" all claiming to be "right" had started.

And isn't it just possible that over 1500 years, the cumulative effect of even slight changes to theology by various church councils meant that the church had moved far enough away from its original beliefs?

Good question. May be relevant if we were able to find "changes". But the we have documented evidence that NO changes have occured in 2000 years.

Reformers didn't "reform" because the Church was TEACHING bad. Reformers (Luther in particular) "reformed" because he was frustrated that individuals in the Church were being abusive. Other's "reformed" becasue they couldn't get the Church to give in to their heresies (like King Henry). "The Church won't accept my sin, so I'll make my own church that will."

[Jake Huether]

,Sep 25 2003, 09:19 AM] bump

We would be Jewish if Jesus didn't come. He was their Savior (which many rejected - as prophesied). :P

[[jas]]

And we'd probably all be catholic if Luther didn't come too.

You didn't answer my question.

All that aside, why does being around the longest automatically make you right?

[Jake Huether]

,Sep 25 2003, 09:29 AM] And we'd probably all be catholic if Luther didn't come too.

You didn't answer my question.

All that aside, why does being around the longest automatically make you right?

It's not the fact that we've been around the longest. That's just a consequence. It is a consiquence of Jesus saying "the gates of hell shall NOT prevail agains it".

[cmotherofpirl]

WE are the longest because we are the Church founded by Jesus Christ. He said the gates of hell would not prevail and they have not.

It doesn't mean we are not sinners, and that as individuals we don't screw up - we do. But the Church is protected against teaching the wrong thing ( which is what infallibility means) by the Holy Spirit, so we struggle on teaching preaching and baptising all nations until He comes again.