vianney Posted October 4, 2003 Posted October 4, 2003 If Rome suggested that such Masses are inappropriate, do you think they would stop?Rome hasnt yet so dont assume what hasnt happened. The USCCB said it was ok. And, attending a Mass as a young adult, observed with reverence and correct rubrics wouldn't be good formation? Have you ever been to a lifeteen mass? They are some of the most reverant masses I have ever been to. As merrymexican jsut pionted out it most lifeteen masses do follow the correct rubrics.
notbilln Posted October 4, 2003 Posted October 4, 2003 Even EMEs are not permitted in the sanctuary before the celebrants receive Holy Communion. To have anyone else, I believe an indult is required from Rome. I don't believe Life Teen has one. Yeah, actually it does. The Pope gave his blessing to the lifeteen program and is on its way to becoming a lay apposolite.
notbilln Posted October 4, 2003 Posted October 4, 2003 mp, I don't really agree with that article, as it focuses on the music. Music is very cultural and "tamborines" to you might mean irreverence or disrespect, but to someone else it might mean a deep, heartfelt devotion to Christ and his True Presence. My issue is not with the music. I think this is particularly unfair: "When the focus is on feeling good and having a good time we forget that Jesus is getting ready to shed His blood and our sins are what put Him on the cross." I don't think the focus of a Lifeteen mass is to "have a good time and feel good", and I doubt you'd find anyone in Lifeteen that'll tell you that's the focus. My only concern is Lifeteen masses not following the rubrics of mass. Sorry to post two in a row, but it happens. Right now Life teen is operating in a loop hole that appears in vatican II. Essentially it allows the mass to be carried out with influences from each culture. LIfe teen firmly belives that Teenagers are a culture unto themselves( personally I think they are from another planet). The Problem as I see it is that every lifeteen mass at every parish is different. That is a problem in my eyes. I do like that standing on the altar has become a right of passage for youth in our parish. It does help them to focus on the sanctaty of the euchrist. Lifeteen has been comisoned by the American council of bishops to come up with a litergy for teenagers. I think once that document comes out many of dUst's concerns will be addressed. I agree with several of them myself. There is another document coming out of rome soon that may superseed the americans ( obviously). It is rumored to explicitly spell out what is and is not permited during a mass. It may repeal severel aspects of vatican II. It may require the instalation of communion pews, and Latin masses ( one parish mass a week I think) as well as having the priest stand with his back to the altar. Lifeteen would obviously abide by whatever Rome tells it to. I am concerned that this may cause a loss of the so called "cafeteria catholics" those standing on the edge. I'm not sure whether it is better to attend mass with a lukewarm heart, or not attend at all (stupid brain, why won't you think!). well thats all that I can say right now.
JP2Iloveyou Posted October 4, 2003 Posted October 4, 2003 Yeah, actually it does. The Pope gave his blessing to the lifeteen program and is on its way to becoming a lay apposolite. An indult is not the same as a blessing. The Holy Father may have given the program his blessing, but that does not in any way apply they have the liberty to interpret the rubrics as they see fit. The GIRM is quite clear on this. I don't understand why this is causing such a debate. I just read through the entire section of the General Instructions on this and it says nothing about having people come into the sanctuary. Quoting from EWTN.com, "The Code of Canon Law, repeating the legislation of the Second Vatican Council in the Constitution on the sacred Liturgy 22, states, Canon 838, 1. The supervision of the sacred liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church which resides in the Apostolic See and, in accord with the law, the diocesan bishop. The liturgical law does not give the bishop authority to override the general law, which does not allow this practice. In fact, only the ministers are to be in the sanctuary (including laity serving as lectors, servers, etc.), and they may not stand around the altar as if concelebrants. 295 The sanctuary is the place where the altar stands, the word of God is proclaimed, and the priest, deacon and other ministers exercise their offices. It should clearly be marked off from the body of the church either by being somewhat elevated or by its distinctive design and appointments. It should be large enough to allow for the proper celebration of the Eucharist which should be easily seen. 42 The gestures and posture of the priest, deacon and the ministers, as well as of the people should allow the whole celebration to shine with dignity and noble simplicity, demonstrating the full and true meaning of each of their diverse parts, while fostering the participation of all. Therefore, greater attention needs to be paid to what is laid down by liturgical law and by the traditional practice of the Roman Rite, for the sake of the common spiritual good of the people of God rather than to personal inclination or arbitrary choice." (EWTN's emphasis) Now, as for music. I am wholeheartedly supportive of p&w music in Mass, assuming it complies with liturgical law. The tempo of a music does not determine its reverence. As long as a song is theologicly accurate and in accord with the current liturgical season, I see no problem with it. I'm far from a liturgical expert, but that's just the way I've read the GIRM. Some p&w music is actually much more theologicly accurate than some "traditional" songs we might be used to, "Amazing Grace" for example.
Tony Posted October 4, 2003 Posted October 4, 2003 In the youth group I attented, they also had everyone gather around the alter.. I didnt feel right being there but I was there. I would rather kneel before the blessed sacrament
cmotherofpirl Posted October 4, 2003 Posted October 4, 2003 Rome hasnt yet so dont assume what hasnt happened. The USCCB said it was ok. Have you ever been to a lifeteen mass? They are some of the most reverant masses I have ever been to. As merrymexican jsut pionted out it most lifeteen masses do follow the correct rubrics. Do you have a copy of a USCCB document stating this?
notbilln Posted October 4, 2003 Posted October 4, 2003 In the youth group I attented, they also had everyone gather around the alter.. I didnt feel right being there but I was there. I would rather kneel before the blessed sacrament Again lifeteen masses are different at each parish. In my parish they do kneel. A some one stated, parts of the mass are subject to change according to the will of the bishop. For example, Masses were originally supposed to only be in english and the priest was only supposed to face the parishiners the entire mass for special occasions. Not every mass. Thats somethign the bishops changed. As I said earlier there is a debvate going on amoungst the bishops about this very same thing. I'm not saying that lifeteens is or is not liturgically correct. It really depends upon who you ask. Don't worry the controversy will soon be solved by rome. Then we can talk about that.
JP2Iloveyou Posted October 4, 2003 Posted October 4, 2003 Again lifeteen masses are different at each parish. In my parish they do kneel. A some one stated, parts of the mass are subject to change according to the will of the bishop. For example, Masses were originally supposed to only be in english and the priest was only supposed to face the parishiners the entire mass for special occasions. Not every mass. Thats somethign the bishops changed. As I said earlier there is a debvate going on amoungst the bishops about this very same thing. I'm not saying that lifeteens is or is not liturgically correct. It really depends upon who you ask. Don't worry the controversy will soon be solved by rome. Then we can talk about that. Again, I think you are mistaken. The bishop does not have the right to waive the rule that says in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church, people kneel for the consecration. Mass was never intended to only be in English. The official language of the Roman Church has always been, is, and always will be Latin. It was a gross misinterpretation of Sacrosanctum Concillium that made people think that Mass was supposed to only be in English. Also, a priest may face the people or face the direction they are facing. Normally, he faces the people, but it is perfectly acceptable to face away as well. We should not have to ask anyone if a Mass is liturgically correct. There are set guidelines we have to follow when offering Mass. Now, I'm not just picking on Lifetenn here. As I've said many times, I think it is a wonderful program that has the potential to bring many young people closer to Christ, they are not above the rules, however. Anyway, you could apply what I'm saying to ANY Mass of the Roman Rite. That's why the GIRM and the new version, the IGRM, have been published.
notbilln Posted October 4, 2003 Posted October 4, 2003 Ok, We are just talking past each other. We really are saying the same thing with diferent emphasis on different parts. I'd explain how, but that wouldn't really serve much of a constructive purpose. Just for clarity let me repeat myself, I agree with you 100%. :)
traichuoi Posted October 7, 2003 Posted October 7, 2003 I am an assistant youth minister and we have LIFE TEEN at our parish. i really love many aspects of this program BUT there are some things i do disagree with. 1. the mass can NOT be more this or that (meaning with the type of music or type of homily, it can not be BETTER.) mass is and always will be perfect because Jesus Christ in the Eucharist is perfect, we can NOT make the mass better with the type of music or homily that's given. 2. i believe it is deceiving and we are cutting our youth short if we teach our faith based on emotions. alot of the threads i read talked about how much the music makes one "feel" closer to the mass or made one "feel" closer to Christ. i think that's alot of carp when we get teens to buy into the "feeling." our faith is so much deeper than that and to base it on feelings would be basing it on superficiality because it's NOT always going to feel good. the music or the homily should not be the focus, it is whether or not we truly are teaching the teens that God is truly present in the Eucharist and not trying to get them to "feel" like God is there. *hope that made sense* 3. some of the music being played at the masses are protestant and non-liturgical thus they should not be included in the liturgy (i.e., "The Happy Song"). i think it's sad when we're so gung ho on teaching contemporary Protestant Christian music that we look down on the richness of traditional hymns and psalms. i think it's sad some of the youth don't know the "Divine Praises" the "Tantum Ergo", "Genitori Genitoque" , etc. because the traditional is kicked out and emphasis is only placed on the contemporary. with that said, i think there are really solid LIFE TEEN parishes out there teaching and ministering solidly. i love the youth and the LIFE TEEN program is the best youth ministry program i've seen when it's done right. hopefully more LIFE TEEN parishes begin to pay close attention to liturgical abuse and don't feel like they can just start changing things because it makes us "feel" good.
vianney Posted October 7, 2003 Posted October 7, 2003 the music being played at the masses are protestant and non-liturgical thus they should not be included in the liturgy (i.e., "The Happy Song"). i think it's sad when we're so gung ho on teaching contemporary Protestant Christian music that we look down on the richness of traditional hymns and psalms. i think it's sad some of the youth don't know the "Divine Praises" the "Tantum Ergo", "Genitori Genitoque" , etc. because the tradlitional is kicked out and emphasis is only placed on the contemporary. If the music praises God and is appropriate it can be considered sacred and can be used litrugically for the mass. Second all I love those songs and I know Tantum Ergo, the Divine Praises, The salve regina, Salutaris, etc so dont assume because somehow you like praise and worship music that you dont know traditional stuff or like it.
PedroX Posted October 7, 2003 Posted October 7, 2003 Vianney, I certainly don't want to put words in anybody's mouth, but I think the point was more about using protestant music, rather than the style. Style does matter, but more importantly, why are we ignoring our rich heritage in favor of protestant music? peace...
vianney Posted October 7, 2003 Posted October 7, 2003 We arent ignoring our heritage! Just because ONE mass has certain songs in it that would be considred praise and worship (not protestant) doesnt mean that we are ignoring our heritage. And why is the style not appropriate. The praise and worship i listen to gives glory to god and praises his holy name. I guess we dont want that "style"
PedroX Posted October 8, 2003 Posted October 8, 2003 Vianney, I was simply pointing out that traichoui was speaking about protestant music in the mass, not only singing latin songs. Just FYI, here's a statement by the Holy Father on liturgical music Again, at a general audience February 26 of this year, the pope himself urged an “examination of conscience” regarding the state of liturgical music. He called for steps to “purify worship from ugliness of style, from distasteful forms of expression, from uninspired musical texts which are not worthy of the great act that is being celebrated.” This was in an article in the September issue of Crisis Magazine (www.crisismagazine.com) peace...
vianney Posted October 8, 2003 Posted October 8, 2003 Ok Pedro now that is something i need to take a look at. Thank you I didnt know he said that and that makes me wonder what type of music he is talking about. Once again thank you
traichuoi Posted October 8, 2003 Posted October 8, 2003 hey pedro and vianney! i guess i should clarify. when you study liturgical music, you are studying not only the music end of it but you are studying the theological aspect of the harmony (words, song, music). when you use "Protestant" music (Protestant because it is written from musicians with Protestant theology), you are missing the elements that give way to the "purpose of the liturgical words and actions" (CCC1157). when writing music for mass, it can't just sound good, it also needs to have sound theology that points toward the Liturgy of the WORD and Liturgy of the Eucharist. am i making sense???
cmotherofpirl Posted October 8, 2003 Posted October 8, 2003 Its the quality ( theology, lyrics, ) not the origin of the song that is important.
jasJis Posted October 8, 2003 Posted October 8, 2003 Amazing Grace is a Protestant song. It was written by a Protestant slave ship captain and sung in Protestant churches. We better not sing that in a Catholic Church.
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