Reformists

[noncatholicname]

[quote]"faith acting through love"[/quote]

How about 'faith acting through love'? That I can agree on.

[Guest Aluigi]

works keep faith alive. faith saves. without works, there is no faith. without faith, works are pointless.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='noncatholicname' date='Nov 15 2004, 05:47 PM'] I clicked enter on my post before, I edited it, but I'll post it again.

See? Catholics believe in works apparently. The problem I see is they put the onus upon man, where God has made the promise. God's spirit, or the HOLY SPIRIT, sustains us. That's why with all the threats of grave sin and the like, only around 33% of catholics actually attend weekly mass. (source: American Catholics: Gender, Generation and commitment)

Strangely enough, that's not what your superiors would say. They would say the onus is on you to do the work, with the HOLY SPIRIT's help. [/quote]
No, rather, the onus is on us to accept the Holy Spirit and His promptings. The Holy Spirit compels us to good works by faith. If we do not go along with it, then we are rejecting the Holy Spirit. That's sin.

And the reason only so many Catholics go to weekly Mass is largely because many are uneducated and don't realize what a great and wonderful thing Mass is.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='noncatholicname' date='Nov 15 2004, 05:51 PM']
How about 'faith acting through love'? That I can agree on. [/quote]
Faith acting through love means good works. Works and acts are the same things.

"Faith acting through love" is the core of the Catholic theology on Faith and Works.

[noncatholicname]

Actually, I meant "love acting through faith". That I can agree on.

Edited November 15, 2004 by noncatholicname

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='noncatholicname' date='Nov 15 2004, 05:48 PM'] So it's faith plus a particular set of works? [/quote]
No, it's faith. If there are no good works, then there really isn't faith and never was. The good works are a sign of faith. They are not the cause of salvation, but rather they are a definitive sign that we really have faith.

[noncatholicname]

[url="http://www.usatoday.com/life/2004-11-07-church-main_x.htm"]http://www.usatoday.com/life/2004-11-07-church-main_x.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0SOR/is_4_64/ai_112357738"]http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_...64/ai_112357738[/url]

Book review on the book American Catholics: Gender, Generation, and Commitment.

[noncatholicname]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Nov 15 2004, 04:56 PM'] No, it's faith. If there are no good works, then there really isn't faith and never was. The good works are a sign of faith. They are not the cause of salvation, but rather they are a definitive sign that we really have faith. [/quote]
When did the Catholic Church start teaching this? Did they suddenly agree with the westminster confession recently?

[Guest Aluigi]

The percentage of Catholics who say they attend Mass [b]every week[/b] is steadily declining.

this includes, i'm sure, many who miss mass every once in a while and thus didn't answer EVERY WEEK.

[Guest Aluigi]

ncn, ALWAYS been taught. ALWAYS

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='noncatholicname' date='Nov 15 2004, 06:01 PM'] When did the Catholic Church start teaching this? Did they suddenly agree with the westminster confession recently? [/quote]
I think the confusion is over the believe in the Catholic Church that works support our faith. Works do help to provide a framework for growth in the faith and they do help us to merit sanctifying grace...sort of like we take a withdrawal from the economy of salvation Christ stored up for us. Sanctifying grace helps us to grow in the faith.

[noncatholicname]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Nov 15 2004, 05:08 PM'] I think the confusion is over the believe in the Catholic Church that works support our faith. Works do help to provide a framework for growth in the faith and they do help us to merit sanctifying grace...sort of like we take a withdrawal from the economy of salvation Christ stored up for us. Sanctifying grace helps us to grow in the faith. [/quote]
Works do the work, but not the HOLY SPIRIT?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='noncatholicname' date='Nov 15 2004, 06:10 PM'] Works do the work, but not the HOLY SPIRIT? [/quote]
1. Sanctifying grace is not the same as saving grace.
2. Grace is always bestowed by the Holy Spirit.
3. The Holy Spirit inspires an action. We respond with a "fiat," and do the action, whether it is prayer, physical work, some miracle, etc. We receive sanctifying grace, not because of the works we do, but because we have consented to the prompting of the Holy Spirit. That is, the Holy Spirit offers a grace and we consent to receive it.

[StColette]

As the others have said, the Church has always taught that we are saved by our faith. But as the Bible says in James 2:26 "For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." The works which we do for God, ie giving to the poor, visiting the sick, etc. we do these things because God wishes us to, which is evident in the Gospel of Matthew 25:31-41, it gives examples of things that we should do for others, because God wants us to. Works don't bring glory to ourselves, they bring glory to God, for in doing them we are fufilling what He wills for us to do. Thus you see the importance of doing these things, for God, not for ourselves. He wants to see all His children cared for and loved, not abandoned and pushed away to the side and forgotten. The Holy Spirit guides us in each thing that we do for God.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='StColette' date='Nov 15 2004, 06:16 PM'] As the others have said, the Church has always taught that we are saved by our faith. But as the Bible says in James 2:26 "For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." The works which we do for God, ie giving to the poor, visiting the sick, etc. we do these things because God wishes us to, which is evident in the Gospel of Matthew 25:31-41, it gives examples of things that we should do for others, because God wants us to. Works don't bring glory to ourselves, they bring glory to God, for in doing them we are fufilling what He wills for us to do. Thus you see the importance of doing these things, for God, not for ourselves. He wants to see all His children cared for and loved, not abandoned and pushed away to the side and forgotten. The Holy Spirit guides us in each thing that we do for God. [/quote]

[noncatholicname]

So I'm going to ask you the same question I asked some catholics who came to an evangelical website.

So, the whole matter of the reformation was just a big misunderstanding? People killing each other, calling anathemas, all of it just a misunderstanding?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='noncatholicname' date='Nov 15 2004, 06:22 PM'] So I'm going to ask you the same question I asked some catholics who came to an evangelical website.

So, the whole matter of the reformation was just a big misunderstanding? People killing each other, calling anathemas, all of it just a misunderstanding? [/quote]
1. There were many more issues in the Reformation than the problem between Faith and Works.
2. Some early followers of Luther actually met with Catholic theologians and agreed with them on the Faith and Works debate. I'm afraid I've only been told this by a reputable apologist and don't have a source...maybe someone else will.

[StColette]

First, the Reformation was bringing into light the "people" who had brought corruption into the Church, it was not the Church, itself, but some of the people within it. Some like to step so far as to say that the entire Church was evil during that period, this was not the case. The case is that people of the clergy are human beings and capable of error. And there were many things that brought about the Reformation it was not solely on faith and works. Also during the time in which the Reformation was still taking place, there was a Reformation within the Catholic Church. Which means that they went through and fixed the problems that were addressed. People often forget that there was a reformation within the Church to correct the errors of some of the people within Her.

Edited November 15, 2004 by StColette

[CatholicCrusader]

Double post...

Edited November 15, 2004 by CatholicCrusader

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote]You've got ALOT to learn.
It is not a mortal sin to miss Mass.  It may be venial but certainly not mortal.  And venial only because you think youve got something more important to do than spending time with God.[/quote]

NO, YOU have a lot to learn. Missing Mass IS a mortal sin. Is it not embarrassing that a PROTESTANT knows more about the Faith than you do?

"And venial only because you think youve got something more important to do than spending time with God." And even the reason that you think it is venial is a protestantized reason. The reason is BECAUSE THE CHURCH SAYS SO.

Here we see the perfect example of the "great Vatican II has done": hardly if any catechesis whatsoever... I mean come on-- protestants who hate the Church know more than those who claim to be Catholic, and even those who are actively involved in Catholic message boards. I suppose this reflects on phatmass, as well. Quietfire is very involved here, yet she has not read that it is a mortal sin to miss Mass on Sunday or Holy Days of Obligation? That is ridiculous, as well. Maybe if more people were interested in discussing the Faith instead of "open mic" discussions, such as "person below me" and like games, phatmass would better reflect an educated Catholic youth, who are interested in their Faith and want to spread it.

[quote]It is not a sin to not pray the rosary. 
But if you did, which you obviously dont, then you would understand what it means to find solace and peace in doing so.[/quote]

And, yes, it is a sin not to pray the Rosary daily. It is a venial sin not to make your morning and night prayers. If you are a Priest, it is a sin not to say the Office. It could be a mortal sin not to; I am not sure about that. Look at any good examination of conscience on the First Commandment or on the Virtue of Faith. Basically, you are looking at this in a minimalistic sense (which, funny enough, is what Novus Ordo-ers say the Church was before Vatican II). Instead of trying to make excuses for not doing this or that (here not going to Mass or not praying the Rosary) and instead of trying to say there is nothing (or little) wrong with either, look at it as: what would the Saints do? How many Saints are there who didn't pray the Rosary daily (that is, after Our Lady gave it to man, of course)? I don't think there is even one canonized Saint who didn't. The same with the number of canonized Saints who didn't go to Mass everyday or as many days as possible (under persecution Mass could not always be said everyday).

[quote]Praying the rosary daily has become one of the reasons I look foward to getting out of bed everyday.   Im alive, allow me to thank God for that.  Because no one else had anything to do with it.
[/quote]

Actually, if the Rosary is one of the reasons... then Our Lady had something to do with it, as well...

Edited November 15, 2004 by CatholicCrusader