Suffering

[carrdero]

[quote]Pedro X writes: I would indeed volunteer for that suffering if it meant that it would save souls from Hell. [/quote]

What if there wasn’t a Hell? Would your sacrifice be in vain? Do you know that this place actually exists? If there wasn’t a Hell could you not just go through this suffering for one person instead of many?

[quote]Pedro X writes: In fact, it was that suffering that allowed humanity to be saved from Hell.[/quote]

How many people living today are saved from Hell? Let me see your hands. From what I read on these posts Hell is still open for business and people have already been judged to go.

[quote]Pedro X writes: The Epistle to the Hebrews makes it clear "without the shedding of blood, there is no remission for sins". The saints through the ages and the many apparations of the Blessed Mother stress over and over that we must endure our sufferings for the sake of our souls.[/quote]

So if I put my hand on a burning stove and endure it until I cannot recognize my hand anymore I am absolved from my sins? Is this all it will take? Is this how it works?

[quote]Pedro X writes: Also, I would suggest that you look into a good, object history of religions.[/quote]

How do you think I am able to approach some of these topics if I didn’t have a history of different religions.

[quote]Pedro X writes: The new age mumbo jumbo bears only the most superficial aspects in common with any historic pagan worship.[/quote]

This “new age mumbo jumbo” has been established before the earth was created of course it is going to clash with the doctrine and dogma of established religions. You are not one of those people who think GOD is Catholic/Methodist/Baptist/Born Again/Protestant etc, are you?

[carrdero]

[quote]JasJis writes: You completely ignore Who and What God is and have relegated Him to how you imagine your imaginary friend.[/quote]

It seems that you have already delegated the fact for yourself that you cannot find a friend in GOD, imaginary or otherwise.

[quote]JasJis writes: It's pointless discussing this with you because you just resort to sophmoric relativeness and won't engage in a logical philisophical discussion.[/quote]

You do not need a degree in language and philosophy to K(NOW) and understand GOD. All you need is an open mind and a desire to listen. Stop making GOD difficult, he’s easy like Sunday morning.

[quote]JasJis writes: Why should we listen to you because you don't want to K(NOW) the truth about anything other than they way you want to define it for yourself.[/quote]

What TRUTH are you presenting to me? There’s been a lot of faith flying around but I haven’t been presented with any TRUTH. Anything I post I ask you to consider as a possibility. If you do not believe me I welcome anyone to bring it up with GOD.

[quote]JasJis writes: You can't even tell the truth about your name. Is it Carrdero or Cardero?[/quote]

??????????????????????????

[quote]JasJis writes: Oh, and Patrick isn't a genious that's just misunderstood. He's an incredibly stupid and moronic starfish who happens to be nice most of the time. [/quote]

Nice is good

[carrdero]

White Knight writes: Easter is not about a dang bunny, or a big old person dressed in red, Christ-Mas and Easter are about Jesus, and the era's of his life, Christ-Mas marks his Birth, Easter, Marks his Resserection.

Apparently someone forgot to inform the American dept stores about this. When I go to the mall during these holidays it is not Jesus’ lap that parents put their children on and get a picture taken with.

White Knight writes: The Pigs, Chickens, etc etc, thing you mentioned, dude they aren't even relative to this issue.... why did you bring them up?

Oh, I'm sorry, haven't you heard? Apparently there are many entities (like Jesus) who are "sacrificing" their lives everyday so you can live. I figured from your posts that you feel somewhat honored when other entities sacrifice themselves so that you can survive/live/suffer/repent. Though this could be a misunderstanding on my part. I was just wondering do you also feel honored about these other entities dying so that you may live or are their lives insignificant? Isn’t the issue suffering through death, making the ultimate sacrifice? Do these other entities deserve the honor/applause/worship/adoration that you express to Jesus?

White Knight writes: Those, CHickens, Pigs, and such, didn't do anything special, Jesus, did something important, those varmits didn't.

Oh, other entities dying, sometimes suffering violent deaths, so that you can live is not special or important enough for you? Do you take these sacrifices for granted? So tell me, what did Jesus do in his life that was so important that we cannot do in our present lives?

White Knight writes: The Christ-Mas & Easter things: Stop giving credit to those two fictional characters, I know Saint Nick, was real, but Its not about him, its about Jesus, I dont even wanna mention the dang MEB.

Though I am not giving credit to these two characters I am becoming very concerned where some people are beginning to blur their own reality by comparing GOD and Jesus to these fictional characters.

[jasJis]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Sep 19 2004, 09:16 AM'] ?????????????????????????? [/quote]
[quote]It seems that you have already delegated the fact for yourself that you cannot find a friend in GOD, imaginary or otherwise. [/quote]How can you say that I don't find a friend in God? Based on what. It's far from the truth, I haven't said anything indicating that, yet you post that conclusion or assumption as if it was based in something in reality.
[quote]You do not need a degree in language and philosophy to K(NOW) and understand GOD. All you need is an open mind and a desire to listen. Stop making GOD difficult, he’s easy like Sunday morning.[/quote]I'm a high-school grad. I don't have a degree in anything. I do know God, have a desire to listen to Him, hear Him, and know Him as best I humanly can. What am I doing to make God difficult to know? I haven't written a book like you. I don't attempt to re-create the wheel in how to get to know God. I simply look to what has been learned by others as an aid and guide to get to know God better. What makes you any smarter or more authorative than I or the Catholic Church?
[quote]What TRUTH are you presenting to me? There’s been a lot of faith flying around but I haven’t been presented with any TRUTH. Anything I post I ask you to consider as a possibility. If you do not believe me I welcome anyone to bring it up with GOD. [/quote]You ignore the Truth. Denying something or closing you eyes doesn't make it disappear. You don't just post your points a possibility. That would mean you pose it as a question to consider. Instead, you contradict. Logic and reason can be used to consider and evaluate things. Faith is quite compatible with, and in fact needs reason. You dismiss what we say as "faith" and try to deny the reasonableness of it. I have these things up with God and I have the understanding you are denying Him.
[quote]Nice is good[/quote]Nice IS good. Evil is found in many forms and wickedness tries to coat itself with sugar.

Bluntly: I think you are very misguided with pride and arrogance and your book serves only to mislead people away from God and away from the aid of others. It is philosophically wrong, makes unreasonable conclusions and assumptions, and you yourself are here only to promote your 'book' in order to enrich yourself.

Edited September 19, 2004 by jasJis

[carrdero]

[quote]JasJis writes: How can you say that I don't find a friend in God?[/quote]

I could be mistaken but it doesn’t sound like you are approaching the entity GOD like you would if you were encouraging your other friendships or relationships.
For example, if I wanted to have a REALationship with Elvis and I read a few books about Elvis do I really have a REALationship with Elvis? No, I do not. If I encountered a few people who knew Elvis and they recounted their moments of Elvis to me, do I really have a REALationship with Elvis. No, I do not. If I went to Graceland (Elvis’ house) 52 times out of the year do I have a REALationship with Elvis? No, I do not. If I bought a hat that Elvis once wore and put it atop my head, do I have a REALationship with Elvis? No, I do not.

[quote]JasJis writes: I haven't written a book like you.[/quote]

I think you may have to forget the prospect that I have written a book. I was not invited to Phatmass to promote my book. I was invited to Phatmass to debate spiritual issues. The fact that I did write a book about GOD is irrelevant unless you choose to debate matters about GOD through literature. I do not expect you to have written a book like me about GOD. I do not need a book to express my experiences about GOD to other people.

[quote]JasJis writes: I don't attempt to re-create the wheel in how to get to know God.[/quote]

Either have I; the wheel was already invented before I was born into this physical existence. The only difference is that I have chosen to finally interview the creator of the wheel instead of talking to the salespersons.

[quote]JasJis writes: What am I doing to make God difficult to know?[/quote]

For one thing in your post you welcome me to “engage in a logical philisophical discussion” about GOD as I explained before, GOD doesn’t subscribe/pledge to human philosophy/religion/politics and I wish people could become aware of this. We cannot bend GOD to our current understanding. If you want to K(NOW) about GOD, ask him, GOD has nothing to hide.

[quote]JasJis writes: I simply look to what has been learned by others as an aid and guide to get to know God better.[/quote]

Have you looked into what everyONE has learned about GOD? Or have you looked through one window? Learning from others about certain matters may be ideal but if there are many perspectives on a particular subject this can cause confusion and may not put you in the state of understanding where you want to be. In the case of learning about other entities I find that if you have a desire to get to K(NOW) someone it is better to go right to the source.

[quote]JasJis writes: What makes you any smarter or more authorative than I or the Catholic Church?[/quote]

I think that just the fact that you do not have to be smarter or hold an authoritative position to K(NOW) GOD better is more than understanding enough.

[quote]JasJis writes: You ignore the Truth.[/quote]

How can you ignore something that wasn’t there to begin with? I will respect your beliefs but I would be very interested to K(NOW) how you came to them and why you believe that way. In most cases people do not understand why they encourage their own beliefs. “Someone told me” and “I learned them from a book” are fine by me but are you doing anything to define and PROVE these beliefs. I can debate beliefs with the best of them but hard evidence doesn’t seem to be forthcoming.

[quote]JasJis writes: Logic and reason can be used to consider and evaluate things.[/quote]

Yes but not in matters concerning glory/holiness/divinity/mysticism/spiritualism/demons/angels/devils/dietys. If these were infallible extensions to logic and reasoning I am sure the lawyers of our society would not waste any time incorporating them into our judicial system.

[quote]JasJis writes: I think you are very misguided with pride and arrogance[/quote]

I think this is a pretty bold judgment from someone who hasn’t bothered to get to
K(NOW) me.

[quote]JasJis writes: and you yourself are here only to promote your 'book' in order to enrich yourself.[/quote]

I think this is a pretty bold judgment from someone who hasn’t read my book. As far as promotion goes I do not think that GOD needs the same PR that Bill Clinton utilizes for his book sales. As far as enriching myself, well I did not need to publish a book about GOD to do that. I think that with what I have learned and from just
K(NOW)ing GOD is enriching in itself. The only reason the book exists is to enrich other people who are also interested in K(NOW)ing GOD. Even GOD’s share of the monetary proceeds (GOD did co-author the book with me) goes to charities to enrich other peoples lives who are less fortunate.

[quote]JasJis writes: Nice IS good. Evil is found in many forms and wickedness tries to coat itself with sugar.[/quote]

Evil spelled backwards is LIVE. (sorry, but that’s all I could think of)

[jasJis]

For your info, Carderro, I am a Catholic Christian thanks to the disussions and learning I received over many years from mostly non-Catholic Christians. I didn't just peer through one window.

God is not completely illogical or unreasonable. Logic and reason does provide some insight to who and what God is.

Most of what I know about God is time spent with Him in silent (me) prayer. To get to know somebody, you have to spend time with Him. Open your heart, soul, and mind to Him and to others who know God too. Others can only give only an introduction, God is giving us His personal invitation. You present an "entity" that is not the God that I know, or anybody else I've discussed our relationship with. You present a superfical, one-dimensional perspective of God, based soley on your questionable opinion and alleged 'discussion'.

What I know of God [after time spent [u]with[/u] Him over many, many years,] directly goes against the drivel you spout here. God/Jesus/The Holy Spirit is the Creator of All, Omnipotent Ruler, Omniscient Being, and my personal Savior, Friend, inspiration, Father, and Brother. He isn't just some distant, fickle, capricious, nonchalant, spontaneous "friend" or "buddy" as you depict in your book. (Which, by the way, I've read enough of on-line and in your posts to get a good idea of where it's at.)

[carrdero]

[quote]JasJis writes: God is not completely illogical or unreasonable. Logic and reason does provide some insight to who and what God is.[/quote]

Yes but not in matters concerning glory/holiness/divinity/mysticism/spiritualism/demons/angels/devils/dietys/miracle. Most people believe that these are borderline fairy tales and cannot be logically reasoned through current human basic (common) sense. So either GOD is these things and is illogical or GOD isn’t and society has been applying the INCORRECT attributes to GOD. I will let you decide.

[quote]JasJis writes: Most of what I know about God is time spent with Him in silent (me) prayer. To get to know somebody, you have to spend time with Him.[/quote]

And if you do not mind me asking, what has GOD told you (this question is optional if it is personal)? Most people that I encounter who claim that they speak “with” GOD (talking and listening) usually recount how GOD strokes and coddles their faith/truths/religious denomination. After speaking to many people of different faiths who claim they do this, you have to sometimes wonder what GOD’s real intentions are for humankind and why GOD keeps changing his own belief system.

[quote]JasJis writes: You present a superfical, one-dimensional perspective of God, based soley on your questionable opinion and alleged 'discussion'.[/quote]

Both GOD and I apologize if we had not presented an Almighty Being that lives up to your expectations. (Actually I blame GOD more, he usually aims to please)

[jasJis]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Sep 21 2004, 10:54 AM'] And if you do not mind me asking, what has GOD told you (this question is optional if it is personal)? Most people that I encounter who claim that they speak “with” GOD (talking and listening) usually recount how GOD strokes and coddles their faith/truths/religious denomination. After speaking to many people of different faiths who claim they do this, you have to sometimes wonder what GOD’s real intentions are for humankind and why GOD keeps changing his own belief system. [/quote]
Get ready...

God tells me that He is not different things to different people. He is the same always. It's us that are different to the same unchanging aspects of God. It's our perceptions that are limited and changing, not Him. He does not hide Himself and can be known sufficiently for who He made us. It's pride and human frailties that warp our perception, but He is always faithful and patient and loving.

So you see. I don't blame God for anything wrong. He is perfect and patient and allows us pt be imperfect and impatient and wrong about Him. God always exceeds my expectations. How facile and erroneous of you to say that I might think He doesn't. It's us who don't meet our standards and usually fail to meet His expectations. Buck up. God isn't our cosmic buddy, but the Omniscient Creator of All who loves us and expects much out of us.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Sep 21 2004, 10:54 AM']
Both GOD and I apologize if we had not presented an Almighty Being that lives up to your expectations. (Actually I blame GOD more, he usually aims to please) [/quote]
Uhhhhh.....I thought that it was supposed to be the other way around, that we should strive to please God???? Let's cut to the chase: who is greater, God or us?

I do understand your original statement from which we have gone off-topic, though; I've met my share of those who take the need for suffering to unhealthy extremes and seem to use it as an excuse to ignore others whose sufferings could be alleviated, sometimes simply by letting people into their precious little cliques. When suffering is unavoidable, though, and the prime example is death, we need to navigate it without sinning.

[White Knight]

[quote name='Norseman82' date='Sep 23 2004, 12:02 AM'] Uhhhhh.....I thought that it was supposed to be the other way around, that we should strive to please God???? Let's cut to the chase: who is greater, God or us?

[/quote]
Well any wise man would say, God is greater the Man, so... we sould try to please God, and less of ourselves, because if we please God, we end up pleasing ourselves too, in the long run.

[White Knight]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Sep 21 2004, 12:20 PM'] Get ready...

God tells me that He is not different things to different people. He is the same always. It's us that are different to the same unchanging aspects of God. It's our perceptions that are limited and changing, not Him. He does not hide Himself and can be known sufficiently for who He made us. It's pride and human frailties that warp our perception, but He is always faithful and patient and loving.

So you see. I don't blame God for anything wrong. He is perfect and patient and allows us pt be imperfect and impatient and wrong about Him. God always exceeds my expectations. How facile and erroneous of you to say that I might think He doesn't. It's us who don't meet our standards and usually fail to meet His expectations. Buck up. God isn't our cosmic buddy, but the Omniscient Creator of All who loves us and expects much out of us. [/quote]
Amen to that man.