Mary's Knight, La Posted October 13, 2004 Posted October 13, 2004 socrates, perhaps i am wrong on this, i am certainly wrong enough about other things, but i do not know of documents saying where John got the idea to baptize. You claim they're of a different origin, I ask you to prove this. my theory, admittedly unresearched as i have not had the reason combined with opportunity to do so, is that baptism pagan, or christian does have it's roots in God, now read carefully so I am not misunderstood, in as much as God let people know they needed cleansing from their sins, so they came up with at least a symbolic way to do it. Once Christ came into the picture the Christian baptism became efficacious. you make think of it much like God formed the jewish religion so that Christ could come and demonstrate the fullness of truth using what was already understood.
Brother Adam Posted October 13, 2004 Posted October 13, 2004 The whole point though being, that people baptized before Christians did. Not that they have a false parallel as ICTHUS suggests they have a real one.
Guest JeffCR07 Posted October 13, 2004 Posted October 13, 2004 OOOO, I [i]love[/i] semantics!.... ICTHUS, I wonder, do you have a christmass tree, or do you give your family an easter basket full of easter eggs? If so, I would worry about your salvation, for clearly these things are pagan influences, and we all know how any pagan influences = eternal damnation right? .... ....
Socrates Posted October 13, 2004 Posted October 13, 2004 [quote name='Mary's Knight, La' date='Oct 12 2004, 08:19 PM'] socrates, perhaps i am wrong on this, i am certainly wrong enough about other things, but i do not know of documents saying where John got the idea to baptize. You claim they're of a different origin, I ask you to prove this. my theory, admittedly unresearched as i have not had the reason combined with opportunity to do so, is that baptism pagan, or christian does have it's roots in God, now read carefully so I am not misunderstood, in as much as God let people know they needed cleansing from their sins, so they came up with at least a symbolic way to do it. Once Christ came into the picture the Christian baptism became efficacious. you make think of it much like God formed the jewish religion so that Christ could come and demonstrate the fullness of truth using what was already understood. [/quote] While there are probably no documents proving where St. John the Baptist "got his idea from," I think it is safe to say, as Christians, that he got the idea from God. St. John was a pius Jew and a great Saint whose mission was to pave the way for the Messiah, so I think it extremely unlikely that he went to pagan sources to "get his idea to baptize." Basically, I think it's an erroneous and dangerous idea that the Holy Sacrament of Baptism came from "baptizing" pagan customs. There are people out there who claim that Catholicism or Christianity is nothing more than a newer form of old paganism - Christianity is really Apollo or sun-god worship, the Eucharist comes from rites of pagan mystery cults, Christian doctrine is neo-Platonism, etc, etc.
Thy Geekdom Come Posted October 13, 2004 Posted October 13, 2004 [quote name='JeffCR07' date='Oct 13 2004, 12:13 AM'] OOOO, I [i]love[/i] semantics!.... ICTHUS, I wonder, do you have a christmass tree, or do you give your family an easter basket full of easter eggs? If so, I would worry about your salvation, for clearly these things are pagan influences, and we all know how any pagan influences = eternal damnation right? .... .... [/quote] Don't forget the celebration of Halloween, St. Valentine's Day, April geniuses' Day, May Day... Oh...and the English language began with pagans...arguably once highly centered on religious purposes...
Brother Adam Posted October 13, 2004 Posted October 13, 2004 Some may be surprised at how many fundamentalists DO NOT celebrate most holidays including Christmas for those reasons.
Laudate_Dominum Posted October 14, 2004 Posted October 14, 2004 I tend to agree with Socrates (LOL), but I would add that there are certainly aspects of ancient Judaism that were common with the beliefs and customs of other peoples. Nonetheless I would not be hastey in giving assent to the many claims floating around out there. For example years back I remember reading about how Christianity came about when the followers of Jesus of Nazareth (notably St. Paul) mixed Judaism with Pagan religion (particularly Mithraism and other mystery cults). The evidence for this was certain similarities between these religions and ancient Christianity, in particular the fact that these religions had "mysteries", aka "sacraments" which were rites of initiation and things that were similar to christianity, and some of these religions had priests, consecrated virgins, bread and wine offerings, baptism, etc.. Just instead of Christ they had Mithras or Dionysus or some other "god". At first I didn't know how to answer these assertions but as I looked into it further it turned out that some of these religions had roots which predated Christianity (in Persian religion and things), but the form of the religion (cult really) that was described is actually based upon post-Christian accounts of the cult practices and things. Anyway, after examining some of the evidence upon which these vile attacks are based, and reading what the Fathers of the Church wrote about these "religions", it became clear that in reality these were sects that were trying to mimic or conterfeit Christianity, not the other way around. I don't think this has ever really stopped. Even today there are many bizzare sects and cults which try to copy the Church but in a twisted way. Also when you examine the teachings of these religions (from the fragments and things that we have about them) their doctrines were hardly comparable to the Christian Faith. These were cheap, conterfeit pagan religions which it is absurd to claim are the roots of the Christian Faith. I could go on in much more detail and with many more reasons but I'm just trying to make one point; namely that it is unwise to assume that these kind of assertions are true, I have found that they usually are grave distortions of the truth. God bless
p0lar_bear Posted October 14, 2004 Posted October 14, 2004 Random bit of information... Did you know that the word pagan simply means a person from the country? Non-Christians in the Roman times would have never called themselves pagans. The Christians began using the word in reference to them in the 4th century. More on topic.... Where is it that Paul worshipped at the "altar to an unknown god"? Taking good things from pagan or non-Christian faiths, or even from secular, cultural practices isn't necessarily bad. It has been the practice of the Church from the beginning. Also, add the use of wedding rings to pagan practices we still follow today.
God Conquers Posted October 27, 2004 Posted October 27, 2004 I think it lends credence to Catholic belief. People were striving for worship of God, but in an imperfect way. Along comes Jesus and the Church and BAM! Perfection. No more sun worshipping, but Son Worshipping (and adoration) No more sacrifices, but The Eternal Sacrifice It's not a coincidence that Chirstianity adopted and perfected these practices... to be Catholic is to be Universal and.... [i]Nothing human is hurt by the Gospel: every authentic value, in whatever culture it appears, is accepted and raised up by Christ. Knowing this, Christians cannot fail to feel in their hearts the pride and responsibility of their call to be witnesses to the light of the Gospel. [/i] JPII Address to WYD Pilgrims at the Vigil at Downsview Park in Toronto 2002
Balthazor Posted October 27, 2004 Posted October 27, 2004 [quote name='ICTHUS' date='Oct 10 2004, 11:07 AM'] Rome says that it is okay to bow down to statues, even if she says that it's not 'worship'. Cultural religions worship idols, so they find that commonality between themselves and Roman Catholicism. Thus, they find it easy to blend.[/quote] Harsh man.... We acknowledge saints, particularily Godly people, with statues, but no we do not bow down and worship them. Think about this. I see flowers in Luthern graveyards, I see headstones of Luthern dead. I see people visiting memorials. I see statues of Protestant reformers. And I see people leaving flowers or cards at these places....trust me they are not all Catholic....I wish they were all Catholic. I see people praying at or near these places. Now how is this any different than doing the same at or near the statue of a Saint? People honor dead friends, and family, they may even pray and leave flowers at a memorial, and yet the connection between idolitry is not made there... . If a Catholic does the same exact thing at a statue of a saint as a Luthern does at a statue at a war memorial....the Catholic must be one step away from idolitry and yet the Luthern is merely paying his respects????? hmmm....... As a Catholic I tend to think of saints like friends who have passed on, likewise I honor them in the same way. It never has even ever crossed my mind to worship a statue or anyone or anything that is not God. Saints are not there as false gods detracting from the worship of God.....on the contrary. Saints are examples of people who have been devoted and true to God through adversity and hardships. I gotta say that when life gets me down and I think that this Christianity thing is just too hard, and that no one could possibly come close to living up to these high standards, I am reminded that there were people out there that did it....maybe not absolutly perfectly, but they held out. I know this is a little off topic..... but I just waned let you take a peek at how this little black duck sees the world. Oh and one more thing....if you say that "with Roman Catholicism, there have arisen religions such as Voodoo and Santeria, mixtures of pagan devil worship and Roman Catholicism (which is itself part Biblical Christianity and part pagan), " This really is an unfair statement. There is nothing at all pagan in Catholic teaching, perhaps there are some elements of pagan culture in places....like Christmas trees. But it is not in any way a pagan religion. Besides by even saying that it is a pagan religion you are discrediting your own Church since if you say Catholicism is pagan...then that would mean any and all churches that sprung forth from it during the reformation would also be pagan and have pagan roots. Especially and including classical reformed Protestantism oh my indeed. May God bless you all, Balthazor
ironmonk Posted October 27, 2004 Posted October 27, 2004 [quote name='ICTHUS' date='Oct 10 2004, 01:07 PM'] How do you account for the fact that, with Roman Catholicism, there have arisen religions such as Voodoo and Santeria, mixtures of pagan devil worship and Roman Catholicism (which is itself part Biblical Christianity and part pagan), whereas no one has mixed classical, Reformed Protestantism with any pagan religions. I have a theory. Rome says that it is okay to bow down to statues, even if she says that it's not 'worship'. Cultural religions worship idols, so they find that commonality between themselves and Roman Catholicism. Thus, they find it easy to blend. [/quote] What I don't understand is why you don't study something before you say it. Voodoo did not come from Catholicism, and Santeria is voodoo hidden in the saints of the Catholic Church so that people wouldn't think that they were practicing voodoo. The information is out there, just do a few searches at reputable places like Britannica.com, HistoryChannel.com, etc... Not the dime a dozen ian paisley style sites that it appears that you get your info from. To say voodoo and santeria came from Catholicism is to show that one had did not understand any of them. -ironmonk
Balthazor Posted October 27, 2004 Posted October 27, 2004 Ironmonk is right.... Santeria in particular uses a Catholic front so it doesn't look like paganism. To them the statues of the saints aren't the holy people who lived long ago, but rather a front for a pagan animist god. They don't even acknowledge who these saints really were......it is like identity theft for saints!!! Try and see santeria as it truly is not as a mixture of Catholicism and paganism but a true a wolf in sheep's clothing. dziekuje, Balthazor
thessalonian Posted October 27, 2004 Posted October 27, 2004 We Catholics need to stop running from the paganism thing. We need to understand it. God has implanted his laws on the hearts of all men. One of those laws is the one about worshipping God. Now they cannot come to who God is without revelation but they can have some correct ideas about him. For instance in Athens Paul uses the Tomb of the Unknown God to help the pagans understand whom the real God is. Some of Pauls comments are out of pagan literature like the one in Acts 17 about "strainging against the goads". The fact is that we are to acknowledge was is good in all religion and reject what is false. Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things. With that in mind, certain things in pagan religions that are not contrary to our faith can be incorporated in to the faith to assimilate the culture to the faith. This is what happened with regard to Christmass being dated on the Winter Solstice which was a pagan holiday. We had a missionary from New Guinea come to our parish a couple of years back. He said something rather funny. New Guinea was a missionary land as late as 1949. Now the people of New Guinea were canabals. Imagine getting the call from your bishop, "Fr. John, I've got a missionary assignment for you". The funny thing is that the people of New Guinea understood the Mass very well. The easily grasped the concept of the Eucharist. Would one say that the paganism influenced Catholicism here? No. But there were things in there paganism that had a ring of truth in them that was used to help them understand Catholicism. It's not a chicken or egg deal. St. Francis Xavier was excellent at this. He was criticized for it some but still was one of the greatest missionaries of all time, converting nearly 1 million people in various lands to Catholicism. Blessings
thessalonian Posted October 27, 2004 Posted October 27, 2004 I should point out as well that the wise men from the east did not get their information from the Bible. Not sure how they got there info but evidently they were open to something that the Jews themselves missed when they had the scripture. Nature speaks of the glory of God. Therefore we should expect to find truth mixed with error in pagan religions. It is the truths that missionaries such as St. Francis Xavier used to convert the world. The whole world was pagan and in the end after centuries of assimilation with the Catholic faith it became Catholic Christian. Catholicism converted the world. Protestantism parasitically pulled some Christians from the fold. Thessalonian
God Conquers Posted October 27, 2004 Posted October 27, 2004 thess, you've got it bang on. Of course Catholism sometimes seems to demonstrate similarities with ancient practices, because the desire for the Gospel (the full gospel) has been written on every man's heart from the beginning of time, and they have been striving to express their worship, though imperfectly, in ways which resemble the perfect, Catholic way.
ICTHUS Posted October 27, 2004 Author Posted October 27, 2004 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Oct 27 2004, 07:24 AM'] What I don't understand is why you don't study something before you say it. Voodoo did not come from Catholicism, and Santeria is voodoo hidden in the saints of the Catholic Church so that people wouldn't think that they were practicing voodoo. The information is out there, just do a few searches at reputable places like Britannica.com, HistoryChannel.com, etc... Not the dime a dozen ian paisley style sites that it appears that you get your info from. To say voodoo and santeria came from Catholicism is to show that one had did not understand any of them. -ironmonk [/quote] You're wrong about voodoo... [url="https://www.sitesalive.com/admin/glossary/sectV.html"]https://www.sitesalive.com/admin/glossary/sectV.html[/url] said... Voodoo = A West Indian religion made up of a combination of African religions and Catholicism; its ceremonies center on rituals developed to please the Iwa (spirits) Also, if Santeria developed out of statues, doesn't that seem to indicate that religious statues of any kind are conducive to idolatry? Indeed, there is a good reason why the second commandment forbids them.
ICTHUS Posted October 27, 2004 Author Posted October 27, 2004 [quote name='thessalonian' date='Oct 27 2004, 02:22 PM'] I should point out as well that the wise men from the east did not get their information from the Bible. Not sure how they got there info but evidently they were open to something that the Jews themselves missed when they had the scripture. Nature speaks of the glory of God. Therefore we should expect to find truth mixed with error in pagan religions. It is the truths that missionaries such as St. Francis Xavier used to convert the world. The whole world was pagan and in the end after centuries of assimilation with the Catholic faith it became Catholic Christian. Catholicism converted the world. Protestantism parasitically pulled some Christians from the fold. Thessalonian [/quote] My issue is that paganism [i]became mixed with Catholicism[/i] and led to damnable forms of religion, such as Santeria and Voodoo.
Guest Aluigi Posted October 27, 2004 Posted October 27, 2004 Santeria developed because people were loyal to their ancient religion and didn't want to convert, but there was a lot of pressure from Spanish colonists (i'm pretty sure it was the spanish this time)... and so Satan whipped up a little scheme to help the people practice their native religion and make the colonists think they had converted them. they took their ancient beliefs and renamed em all to disguise em as Catholic.
God Conquers Posted October 27, 2004 Posted October 27, 2004 Well, ICTHUS, you can say the same thing about mainline protestantism. If poorly practiced, and for faithful who care nothing for orthodoxy or the Gospel, then there are plenty of opportunities to be mixed up in paganism. Catholicism is to Santeria as Protestantism is to Christian New Age (practiced in many United and Anglican churches, who use Enneigrams, labyrinths (incorrectly), astrology, etc.)
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