Roman Catholicism conducive to mixture...

[thessalonian]

"My issue is that paganism became mixed with Catholicism and led to damnable forms of religion, such as Santeria and Voodoo. "

Yes, these are damnable forms of religion. However how does that reflect poorly on Catholicism? I don't see a new section on VooDoo in the Catechism. No Santeria Tradition started up. If the whole church embraced it then you would have a point. I said above that we must hold on to the good and reject the bad. If some do not reject the bad that is not a reflection on my Catholic faith in America. It may be a lack of education and understanding on their part. It may be outright rebellion. But it will not change my faith tommorrow if a Catholic group in Zimbawee decides that animals are to be prayed to. I have the Catechism and the Pope to keep me grounded.

Blessings

[Justified Saint]

If you are trying to make an appeal to reason I fear it won't work with ICTHUS. Luther and his ilk anathematized reason. Thus ICTHUS's absurd statements about Catholicism and voodoo when Protestantism has been mixed with just about every damnable thing.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Oct 27 2004, 04:45 PM'] "My issue is that paganism became mixed with Catholicism and led to damnable forms of religion, such as Santeria and Voodoo. "

Yes, these are damnable forms of religion.  However how does that reflect poorly on Catholicism?  I don't see a new section on VooDoo in the Catechism.  No Santeria Tradition started up.  If the whole church embraced it then you would have a point.  I said above that we must hold on to the good and reject the bad.  If some do not reject the bad that is not a reflection on my Catholic faith in America.  It may be a lack of education and understanding on their part.  It may be outright rebellion.  But it will not change my faith tommorrow if a Catholic group in Zimbawee decides that animals are to be prayed to.  I have the Catechism and the Pope to keep me grounded. 

Blessings

[/quote]
I understand this - what I'm trying to do, rather, is look at the root cause of peoples defection to these damnable forms of religion.

We all know that the true Gospel, when preached effectively, demands [i]metanoia[/i] - repentance from sin and living a new way of life in the light of Christ's Truth. I would suggest that the problems with immorality and general false religion within some parts of the Church of Rome is indicitave of a much deeper problem with the Gospel they preach.

[quote name='Justified Saint']If you are trying to make an appeal to reason I fear it won't work with ICTHUS. Luther and his ilk anathematized reason. Thus ICTHUS's absurd statements about Catholicism and voodoo when Protestantism has been mixed with just about every damnable thing. [/quote] Here we see why I sometimes lose my cool on these boards. I fail to see how the above could be construed any other manner than as an ad-hominem attack against me. Has this person been warned? I know I would have been had I said something similar to another Roman Catholic on this board.

Incidentally, you are (partially) incorrect that Luther anathematized reason altogether. The Reformers believed that reason, when it was not captivated by the Word of God, was ultimately vain and foolish (cf. Romans 1). Thus, the reason which to which Luther was referring when he referred to that "beaver dam whore reason" was reason which the unregenerate man uses to justify himself or prove his way out of believing in God.

Edited October 28, 2004 by ICTHUS

[Balthazor]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Oct 28 2004, 04:32 PM'] I understand this - what I'm trying to do, rather, is look at the root cause of peoples defection to these damnable forms of religion.


[/quote]
Perhaps you are looking in the wrong place for your answer. Seeing as this is a Catholic forum, you will get mostly answers from people who are faithful to the Catholic Church. You are looking to people who have not defected to a dmnable form of religion but rather people who have stayed fiercly faithful to Christ's Church.

Instead perhaps you should ask someone who is practicing voodoo or santeria. They could probably give you a much better answer than people who are not involved in santeria or voodoo than these people who are faithful to the Catholic Christian Faith.

I Hope I am not making you feel unwelcome....that is not my intent. I simply think if you are looking for an answer here you are not going to find it.

Good luck in your search for truth and God Bless,

Balthazor

[Good Friday]

[quote name='ICTHUS']I understand this - what I'm trying to do, rather, is look at the root cause of peoples defection to these damnable forms of religion.[/quote]
What you seem to not be understanding is that no defection is involved. It's not as if normal, everyday Catholics are defecting to Vodoun and Santeria on a daily basis. Vodoun and Santeria existed prior to Catholicism, among the native tribes of Africa -- the Yoruba tribe, for instance. These are native religions that have existed for a very long time. But when these Africans were brought to the Americas, to Haiti and other Central American nations, they were forced to convert to Catholicism, as was the practice then. But they didn't want to convert to Catholicism, so they hid their [i]orishas[/i] in the saints, so that Catholics would think they were just praying for the intercession of the saints when, in actuality, they were worshipping their orishas.

So it's not that Vodoun and Santeria developed out of Catholicism, it's that they manipulated parts of the Catholic faith to hide their earlier, native religion. There was no defection from Catholicism to Santeria; these people were never Catholic in the first place.

[quote name='ICTHUS']We all know that the true Gospel, when preached effectively, demands metanoia - repentance from sin and living a new way of life in the light of Christ's Truth. I would suggest that the problems with immorality and general false religion within some parts of the Church of Rome is indicitave of a much deeper problem with the Gospel they preach.[/quote]
That's ridiculous, and you know it. There are problems with immorality in any church, because there are imperfect human beings in any church. Find me a church that has no immorality.

- - -

While we're on the topic, let's talk about some of the immorality that sprung from Protestantism.

Perhaps you're familiar with the Unitarian Universalist Association. They're the most progressive church probably in the world, and they used to be Christian -- although now they welcome pagans, atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, etc. into their midst for worship. But like I said, they used to be two separate Christian sects: Unitarianism and Universalism. Both were Protestant. Unitarianism held that God was only one person, the Father, and that Jesus and the Holy Spirit were not God. Universalism held that there was no hell. They arrived at these errant beliefs by private interpretation of the Bible, just as all Protestants arrive at their beliefs.

Perhaps you're familiar with the Episcopal Church. They're one of the most progressive churches in the world, but they are still (at least, nominally) Christian. They now ordain female bishops, as well as ordaining actively gay men (not only that, but a homosexual man who left his wife and children). And the Archbishop of Canterbury, the leader of the entire Anglican Communion, holds membership in a Druid (pagan) organization. Not only this, but the Anglican Communion has several sects, I'm sure you've heard of them: High Church, Anglo-Catholic, Broad Church, etc. The Broad Church sect includes unabashed liberals like John Shelby Spong, who don't believe in the divinity of Jesus and, in some cases, don't even believe in a theistic God.

Perhaps you're familiar with the United Church of Christ. Another one of the most progressive churches in the world, nominally Christian. Much of the same stuff as the Episcopal Church does. The United Church of Christ descends directly from Calvinism, Congregationalism and reform theology.

All of these churches, which I'm sure you would agree are errant, come from "traditional" Protestantism, "conservative" Protestantism. You don't get much more conservative than Calvinism, but that's what the United Church of Christ descends from. And I could go on, and on, and on about this. But I think I'll stop with just those three examples.

Beam . . . eye . . .

[cmotherofpirl]

[ICTHUS]

d

Edited October 29, 2004 by ICTHUS

[Justified Saint]

ICTHUS, whenever I read your posts the only words that come to my mind to describe them are ad-hominem and other kinds of hate rhetoric.

[thessalonian]

"We all know that the true Gospel, when preached effectively, demands metanoia - repentance from sin and living a new way of life in the light of Christ's Truth. I would suggest that the problems with immorality and general false religion within some parts of the Church of Rome is indicitave of a much deeper problem with the Gospel they preach. "

First of all I will agree with you that the comment about using reason against you was out of line. We all reason based on how we were taught and how we understand. While I do not agree with some of your conclusions, nevertheless I have come to know that all men use reason and to truly understand Catholicism one must truly be a Catholic. Therefore if you are not I leave the juding of that up to God alone as to how you are using the mental facalties he has given you.
I apologize for my brother though I will say I have made similar statements to others in the past and apologize for them as well.

As for your point about the Gospel they preach, I will grant you a half a point against the preachers themselves. Many today preach a watered down Gospel. Sin is rarely mentioned in many of the parishes. Some even embrace homosexuality. We are told in the scriptures that there will be false teachers among us and that men will be decieved by them. Peter's letters I believe as well as the book of Acts. It is difficult enough for men to come to a true knowledge of Christ when the Gospel is preached well for we are told that even then some of the seed will fall on rocky ground and not even begin to grow while some will produce shallow Christians who sprout up and die. Then the false teachers will take some, being those seeds which sprouted but were chocked out by the weeds. So even if the Gospel is preached well, which it is in many parishes and by many priests in the Catholic Church these things will happen. So I will grant you a point for saying the Gospel must be preached with fidelity to the truth, saying the hard things, but I cannot grant you a point for saying that because people are led astray by the false teachers that this is some sort of reflection or apologetic arguement against the Catholic Church. Biblically it just doesn't hold. There were plenty of problems in the early Church with the very converts that Paul and the rest of the Apostles preached to. Read 1 Cor 5,6 and Galatians, and Revelations 2 & 3. It seems likely that the people spoken of here were holding on to false ideologies and sinful behavior of their past as well. Now was there something wrong with the Gospel that the Apostles preached because of the sinful behavior and the scandal. No. It was just the seeds falling on various types of soil and withering in the heat of daily life and temptation and the fallen nature of man. For those false teachers or the ones that water down the faith and avoid saying the hard things, Jerimiah 3 and 33 tell us that those teachers will recieve their due.

Ezekiel 3:17-19
"Son of man, I have appointed you a watchman to the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from My mouth, warn them from Me.
"When I say to the wicked, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand.
"Yet if you have warned the wicked and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered yourself.


Blessings

Edited October 29, 2004 by thessalonian

[Quietfire]

Way to go Nathan!!!!



Peace.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Justified Saint' date='Oct 29 2004, 12:21 AM'] ICTHUS, whenever I read your posts the only words that come to my mind to describe them are ad-hominem and other kinds of hate rhetoric. [/quote]
Did it ever occur to you that this might be brought on as a result of the poor attitudes of arrogant people such as Ironmonk and yourself?

Edited October 29, 2004 by ICTHUS

[ICTHUS]

I should point out to Good Friday that the druidic society that the Abp. of Canterbury belongs to is a literary society...

[ICTHUS]

Also, Saint, what do you make of the defense I provided of Luther's 'anathematizing' reason.

[Theoketos]

Only Charity needs to happen below this...there are more Christian ways to present the above posts.

Bluntness is good, but everything can be said out of love.

[Justified Saint]

[quote]Did it ever occur to you that this might be brought on as a result of the poor attitudes of arrogant people such as Ironmonk and yourself?[/quote]

I think you just proved my point.

Besides, I hardly ever feel the need to respond to things you have written, and only do so when your endless anti-Catholic rants need to be humbled.


As far as Luther is concerned, it turns out that even the seemingly regenerate man can have a very shaky grasp of reason.

[thessalonian]

This thread has gotten off topic. Icthus, I would like to see you address my post above, or anyone else who would like to address it, you are welcome also.

Blessings

[D0RK4JP2]

Roman Catholicism infers paganism in some of its practise but main-stream protestantism doesn't...hmmm.

You could reverse that equation and say paganism infers Catholicism but protestantism does [infer paganism]. Does it sound logical? No. Why? One [Paganism] is naturalism, the other [Catholicism etc] is supernaturalism.

It is however common to note that pagans do try to infiltrate Catholic culture, viz, through the central place of all Catholics, the church. So your theory may be a mix-up with serious pagans trying to undermine the Church. E.g, the practise of bowing before a statue could be considered worship if you thought naturalistically, ie, like a pagan, whereby this thought process began not in the Church but by pagans themselves.

Don't you think, therefore, you could equally theorise that pagans are inferring paganism in the Catholic Church and not so much in the protestant Churches because of what pagans may decide to do, viz, bring down their existential opponent, the grand-daddy of all supernaturalistic religions - THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!

JMJ.

[thessalonian]

Icthus,

This is your thread and I have addressed your issue twice with much effort and detail. Rather than engage in the conversation you started you have choosen to get in to a spitting match with JS. Could you address my posts.

Blessings

Thessalonian

[Balthazor]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Oct 29 2004, 05:57 PM'] Did it ever occur to you that this might be brought on as a result of the poor attitudes of arrogant people such as Ironmonk and yourself? [/quote]
Ring ring:
Kettle: Hello?
Pot: Hey this is Pot! You are black!!

[the lumberjack]

Icthus, it appears as if people keep pointing the finger at OTHER religions and cults, instead of addressing your question directly...

"Well they (fill in the blank with the cult you wish) did it/ do it too/first!!!"

when, if you look at the nation of Mexico, which was/IS FULL of idolatry, the way that the Catholic Church got a foothold when the Spanish ORIGINALLY came over was to identify thir pagan gods with the saints of the Catholic Church...

"Oh!! the mother god?? yeah! thats Mary!"